Anyone running a sbf with a T-10 in their Ranchero? Mine is a 57. I was looking through the transmission threads and find tons on info on bbf with top loaders.
If any folks are indeed running a sbf with a T-10, what issues did you run into? Was it a fairly simple install?
Thanks
I have seen numerous 57-59 Ford cars with 302s and 351s, with automatics, Toploaders and T5s, realistically the T10 should fit pretty much the same as a Toploader. I have a Toploader with a FE in my 59, the T10 should be no more difficult. I retained the factory mechanical clutch linkage, I can`t imagine a SB Ford should be a difficult swap.
Read This - https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/1957-ford-fairlane-engine-swap.964715/
What model year is the engine?
My engine is a 289. Not a 5 bolt block. However I do not remember the year.
I have a chance to buy this T-10 with shifter for a decent price. My car was not originally a manual car, however there was a box with clutch pedal assembly parts in it when I got it. I'm sure I'll have to find the ball for the block and a pivot bracket for the frame.
My 57 car is getting a T10 which is already bolted to the 351c engine for fitment purposes. The T10 I am using is a 62, though I also have another excellent 63 T10 for backup. The 390 guys in early 60's reported the T-10's broke too easy, hence the toploader evolution and development.
Shifters for them are getting scarce, but still around. Input shaft clutch splines are 22 spline (58-64) instead of 10, IIRC. I used all my toploaders in other cars, except for one CJ big spline toploader that is overkill for my 57 and saving that for a 61 Galaxie convertible with a 460.
There are some SBF bellhousings that have both old (narrow) and new (wide) transmission bolt patterns drilled, but real hard to find and expensive. Cheaper way is what I did, drill the undrilled bosses that were carried over for years on some SBF pickup cast iron bellhousings.
I brought the later wide toploader pattern SBF bell (which had the undrilled bosses cast into it) to a machinist along with an old FE narrow trans pattern bell and he drilled and tapped the undrilled narrow pattern bosses in the later wide pattern bell. So, the bell now accepts both narrow and wide pattern transmissions.
The 2 bells I have drilled and tapped like this are both from mid 70's pickups and use 164 tooth flywheels. 289 is probably a 157 tooth, so you would have to change the flywheel to 164 tooth unless there are some smaller bells for 157 tooth floating around. If there are, I did not find any, though. I can get the casting numbers off my bellhousings if you decide to go this route and need them.
This bell does not have a provision for the clutch linkage ball on engine side, so I fabricated a bracket that bolts on longer bell-to-engine bolts. Think you can buy them aftermarket from Mustang shops too. It emains to be seen how that lines up with the frame side, or if I will need to shorten the clutch pivot linkage to fit. I expect the engine will be in within the next couple months and can tell you more then. Could use a hydraulic clutch system too, but decided to keep the old school mechanical linkage.
T10 is not as strong as a toploader, but plenty strong for small block, Y block, or for normal driving with even a 390. The Ford T10 bolts right up on a Y block bellhousing, shifters for them are scarce though. The narrow front bolt pattern on Ford T10 trans was used thru 64, I believe and then toploader wide pattern transmission was used from 1965 on.
They also made T-10's for GM with different front case, so make sure it is a Ford T10 by the narrow bolt pattern. It is easily distinguishable. Should be the same front bolt pattern as a 49-64 three speed transmission and have fine 22 spline input shaft.
I went through a couple of T-10's on my FE's before finding a toploader. No more T-10's for me in big blocks.
Input does not look like 22 spline. I did not count. Here are a few pictures and the tag.
Tag shows "HEK-AD-1" and the input shaft has the "two" groves on it.
If I am understanding the tag correctly, I believe this to be out of a 66 Mustang. Supposedly it has been gone through.
One more picture of the bolt pattern.
Not a big power house by no means, but fun none the less!
Make sure your transmission (either T-10, or Toploader) has the shifter mount at the front of the tail housing, NOT at the rear of the housing. The Mustangs had the shifter at the rear for bucket seats. The Galaxy's had it mounted forward for a bench seat.
I would find a Top loader and not look back. It's the car weight with the added power that kills the transmission. Don't even try to tell yourself that your going to keep your foot out of those 2x4's.
Everyone here was a teenager at one time. As they say, you have to grow old, but you never really have to grow up. Gary's C-6 Clutchflite is the winning ticket.
The Fairlane Toploaders also had the shifter mounted in the forward position. The Toploader in my 59, I bought from a guy who had it in his recently purchased "K" code 65 Mustang, but according to the tag ID on Dave Kees site, the trans was originally from a 66 289 Fairlane. A bonus was that the tailhousing had both the forward and rearward Mustang shifter bosses drilled and tapped, and my Hurst Super Shifter 3 came with a mounting plate and rods for both applications. The Super Shifter has a short, straight shifter handle, and in the forward position, the factory bench seat clears the shifter, provided I don`t need the seat all the way forward. (Sorry, Wife! :003:) ) If bucket seats were used, either position would work.
Back in the day I picked up a box of parts that was a T10 trans at one time. Figured out what I needed to put it back together and ran it in my 63 Galaxie. Ran high 12's with a far from stock 390 and never broke anything in the trans. Snapped an axle shaft once though.
I have buckets to put in the car. The bench seat will go on the shelf until I can figure out if I want to keep it or not.
I asked for a picture of the shifter mounting as I could not remember. The attachment is what he sent. Looks to be at the end of the tail shaft.
Great info and thank you everyone for the help.
That is one of the transitional transmissions that has both wide and narrow patterns and after 64 they went back to 10 spline input. The good thing is this transmission will bolt to either a 157t or 164t SBF bell and will work with no adapting required on the mounting end. Perhaps will make your clutch mechanism easier to fit than my 164t bell as well.
News to me that they were still even using T10's by 1966.. but that is a T10 and it is made for a Ford with old and new bolt patterns drilled. A good find I think, if it is in decent condition. Check to make sure it shifts into all the gears and turns, plus should have a side cover you can inspect the gears for the cost of a gasket. Not as strong as a toploader, but not a weak trans by SBF standards.
Chances are if you have the automatic rear end still in it, you may want to also swap that center section out for a lower ratio though. Automatics were normally higher ratio rears and takeoff will be sketchy with the high geared rear, plus your rpm drops between gears will be steep.
Ford was still using some T-10's in Mustangs.
The pics show the longer pilot bearing nose which the small block will need.
You will need a long output housing with the shifter at the very front of the output housing.
I went thru the same problems with a 61 Ford, the mustang trans mount, shifter location and overall length were wrong.
You will need a Galaxie shaft and housing to make everything work.
Good luck,
Ron.
Quote from: SkylinerRon on 2021-03-08 01:52
Ford was still using some T-10's in Mustangs.
Ron.
My '69 Mustang came with a T-10 behind a 351W.
Quote from: SkylinerRon on 2021-03-08 01:52
Ford was still using some T-10's in Mustangs.
The pics show the longer pilot bearing nose which the small block will need.
You will need a long output housing with the shifter at the very front of the output housing.
I went thru the same problems with a 61 Ford, the mustang trans mount, shifter location and overall length were wrong.
You will need a Galaxie shaft and housing to make everything work.
Good luck,
Ron.
Ron can you elaborate a little more on the tail shaft length? What doesn't work using the Mustang tailshaft?
Thanks
Quote from: mustang6984 on 2021-03-08 01:56
My '69 Mustang came with a T-10 behind a 351W.
Did you buy the car new or used?
I bought it used...from the 2nd owner who told me it was all stock. no reason to doubt him. Are you suspicious? I haven't noticed any modifications anywhere...and I have now torn that baby down to a nekkid shell.
It is unusual to me as far as I know, FORD stopped the BW install in the 65/66 model year. Mainly they were waiting for the F/4/S production to catch up.
I don't have access to my 1965/72 MPC now so I can't verify one way other other.
But I will keep this in mind (hopefully) and check it out when I get all my computer stuff back.
No disrespect intended.
None taken. I have a top loader that I had put in my '57 that I am working on now. (or was until I decided to wander 2100 miles across the country.) I am going with a 428/heavily modified-upgrade C-6, so I COULD put that T/L in the '69 when it is ready if you find that was what was supposed to be in there.
Let me know what you find out. I am really a T/L fan anyhow.
Like Kultulz said, I don`t think Ford put T10s in any cars after 65 or 66. Somebody likely wanted the Toploader from the 69, and stuck a T10 in it`s place.GM, Ford and Chrysler all used T10s until about 64, when they all developed their own 4 speeds, due to the inadequate strength of the T10.
Possible I suppose. History of the car as it was told to me, and as I later fund out when I tore it down:
The car was originally a Montana car acquired by the guy I got it from when he was living u there. When he moved to Olympia
WA area he brought it with him. At some point it was involved in a accident and he "body-worked" it and then painted it. Not sure if the accident was in MO or WA. I am however sure that he was NO body man. When we started to tear it down, we discovered well in excess of 3/4 of an inch of Bondo in the left rear 1/4 panel...covering most of the panel. He was good at shaping Bondo though! The paint had also begun to disappear on my trip from Olympia to San Antonio 3 months after I bought it...not a happy camper, but by that time he was gone...no longer working where I had met him or living where I had picked up the car from.
So...either he lied to me about the components being all original...or possibly he bought it with the T-10 from the original owner who did as you said. If it is supposed to have the T/L...then I'll stick the one I have into it...not that is going to be a Gold Class restoration, but I have one, so why not use it right? Or...I could save it...and put the T/L into the white '57 Courier...which was my race car... :003: That is where the T/L came from...when I got tired of popping T-85's in the brown Courier.
I know my memory from that time period is getting shaky but the best I remember the new 66 Mustang my girl friend bought had a top loader.
RE; Toploader problems.
The Mustang trans puts the shifter mount and trans mount in the wrong places for ALL full size bodies from 1949 up.
The Mustang rubber mount won't work, the speedo cable is on the wrong side and the shifter would be under the front seat.
Your driveshaft will be too short and the splines on the yoke are probably wrong.
All 64 up Galaxie output shafts and tailhousings make every thing fit. Also some late Torino parts will work but, I haven't used one myself.
Sadly most of the used 4sp's out there are from Mustangs and the chassis layout is completely different making swaps difficult.
BTW; 65 & 66 were the only years both trans were used, probably because Ford sold more 4sp Mustangs than they planned for.
Good luck,
Ron.
I have seen some toploader tailhousing that have bosses for both shifter positions in the casting. The Toploader in my 59, according to the Dave Kee website, was originally from 1 66 Fairlane 289, but the guy I bought it from, had it in a 65 Mustang K code. It has both sets of mounting holes drilled and tapped, and the forward Fairlane position, clears my stock bench seat just fine, unless I needed to move the seat all the way forward.
Quote from: SkylinerRon on 2021-03-10 01:57
RE; Toploader problems.
The Mustang trans puts the shifter mount and trans mount in the wrong places for ALL full size bodies from 1949 up.
The Mustang rubber mount won't work, the speedo cable is on the wrong side and the shifter would be under the front seat.
Your driveshaft will be too short and the splines on the yoke are probably wrong.
All 64 up Galaxie output shafts and tailhousings make every thing fit. Also some late Torino parts will work but, I haven't used one myself.
Sadly most of the used 4sp's out there are from Mustangs and the chassis layout is completely different making swaps difficult.
BTW; 65 & 66 were the only years both trans were used, probably because Ford sold more 4sp Mustangs than they planned for.
Good luck,
Ron.
Thank you Ron. He also has a super t10 that he believes was out of a bbf car. I need to go back out and take pictures of the numbers on it and see what it is. It does have the notch in the tail housing. If that's the better of the two options, maybe I can change his mind om which on to sell.
Thank you for knowledge.
I am going to be using bucket seats. With that said, would the shifter position be that big of deal?
The total of problems to overcome makes using the Galaxie parts the way to go.
The Galaxie T-10 will be the long tailhousing like the 57 up 3sp and fit like like a glove.
I haven't dealt much with Fairlane/Torino boxes. Once converted a 70 429 box to 65 Mustang. Rebuilt a lot of Mustang boxes though.
The T-10's used by GM, Ford, AMC and Mopar are all different in spline counts and length, Bellhousing bolt patterns, Bearing retainer diameter,
tailhousing length, shifter mounting and gear ratios (tooth counts).
It is possible to mix and match only if you can identify everything.
Good luck,
Ron.
Quote from: SkylinerRon on 2021-03-15 22:29
The total of problems to overcome makes using the Galaxie parts the way to go.
The Galaxie T-10 will be the long tailhousing like the 57 up 3sp and fit like like a glove.
I haven't dealt much with Fairlane/Torino boxes. Once converted a 70 429 box to 65 Mustang. Rebuilt a lot of Mustang boxes though.
The T-10's used by GM, Ford, AMC and Mopar are all different in spline counts and length, Bellhousing bolt patterns, Bearing retainer diameter,
tailhousing length, shifter mounting and gear ratios (tooth counts).
It is possible to mix and match only if you can identify everything.
Good luck,
Ron.
Thank you Ron for your help and knowledge.
Your welcome!
Ron.
Quote from: KULTULZ on 2021-03-08 17:50
It is unusual to me as far as I know, FORD stopped the BW install in the 65/66 model year. Mainly they were waiting for the F/4/S production to catch up.
I don't have access to my 1965/72 MPC now so I can't verify one way other other.
But I will keep this in mind (hopefully) and check it out when I get all my computer stuff back.
Here Is The 1969 MUST STD TRANS APP CHART -
Quote from: Ottoparts on 2021-03-10 12:05
He also has a super t10 that he believes was out of a bbf car. I need to go back out and take pictures of the numbers on it and see what it is. It does have the notch in the tail housing. If that's the better of the two options, maybe I can change his mind om which on to sell.
Just a note.
The SUPER T-10 was released for GM only. Of course you could buy them over the counter and through speed shops of the period.
QuoteThe most popular version of the T-10 among enthusiasts is the Power Brute Super T-10, which was used on the 1974-'82 GM A-Body and F-body cars. The Super T-10s used a 26-spline input shaft and were built to withstand the higher rpm requirements for the larger muscle car engines.
.
SOURCE - https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/borg-warner-t-10-four-speed
Just to let you know it was never released in a FORD. The TOP-LOADER beat them all.
The Super T-10 also had a larger shaft going thru the cluster gear (1") and better steel alloy gears (9310 if I remember correctly) and some had multiple mounting holes to the bellhousing.
You could also buy them new with Ford or AMC bellhousing pattern mounting and input shaft.
First gear ratios of 2.88, 2.64, 2.43 and 2.20 were available.
Note; The higher number the 1st gear was, the less torque it could stand. That's why early T-10's were mostly 2.36, 2.23 and 2.20. especially with big V-8's.
Ron.