FYI, I found a fuel tank for our cars that has an EFI pump mount already built-in in addition to the fuel level mount. Bob Drake PN 91076078. On sale ( being discontinued I suspect) for $205. I ordered one this morning from Bob Drake. Speedway has the same tank for $350.... Classic City is out of stock on a standard tank.
Are you going to use an in-tank pump? If so, I've got a recommendation for the fuel line connections.
I am going to put an in tank pump. I am in the process of convincing myself to go with EFI on my FE. I have been fighting what I thought was a fuel pressure problem which turned to be the gauge 4 pumps later. Once my engine temp gets past about 195 the engine does not want to run. I have a recirculating fuel supply system to try to keep the gas from getting too hot but when the A/C is running the car seems undependable. I have tried a lot of things to solve this problem and it has gotten better but it is still an issue.
Fuel line connection info is ALWAYS welcome!
The Drake tank seems to have the pump mounting flange in the same position where I put mine. It's the logical location given the usual fuel line routing on the passenger side. However, there is a trunk floor support that is right behind the tank, making it difficult to pass the double wall rubber fuel line past it. My support is "dimpled" heavily where those two lines pass. Years ago, I had an issue with one of the lines rubbing thru and leaking.
Last week when I was replacing the fuel sending unit's cork gasket, I got to thinking a much better plan for the fuel lines would have been to make some fittings from the steel fuel line that would run out and down past the mentioned floor brace. 3/8 fuel line is much smaller than the heavy wall rubber. At that point, once past the floor support, you could hook up the rubber flexible connector line.
Quote from: lalessi1 on 2021-09-05 13:31
I am going to put an in tank pump. I am in the process of convincing myself to go with EFI on my FE. I have been fighting what I thought was a fuel pressure problem which turned to be the gauge 4 pumps later. Once my engine temp gets past about 195 the engine does not want to run. I have a recirculating fuel supply system to try to keep the gas from getting to hot but when the A/C is running the car seems undependable. I have tried a lot of things to solve this problem and it has gotten better but it is still an issue.
Fuel line connection info is ALWAYS welcome!
Lynn, are you using a phenolic type spacer between the carb and manifold?
Yes, I have a 1/2" phenolic spacer and a carb insulator kit made by Quick Fuel. I have a Griffin radiator with (2) 12" Spal fans. I am using an electric vane pump regulated to 7 psi with a return line. The fuel lines are routed between the fender and the cowl and run up over the heater fan to the fuel block mounted by the hood latch. I even have a cowl induction setup to provide ambient air to the carb. I have explored (and am still considering) cutting a radiator core support and modifying the hood hinges to allow the use of a 18" x 28" radiator with (2) 14" fans!
Lynn, I seem to recall you have been dealing with the heating for some time in older posts. I don't recall all the particulars but I'm sure we went through things like backward head gasket. Fans don't do anything at speed, its all about air flow. I think I would be looking at timing issues, either too much or not enough.
I am looking into the timing now. Looking at the A/F ratio as well the exhaust header temps at idle are a little high I think. I am just of the opinion that a 462 putting out 500 hp is making a TON of heat. Thinking that the engine bay is maybe a little confined and opening up the radiator support (for a bigger radiator and fans) and ducting a little air from the inner fenders would do the trick. I just really don't want to hack up the car that much. The radiator people told me that the engine really isn't overheating at a 195 degrees (with the A/C on) and I tend to agree. Hence the thoughts about EFI!
On a side note I found out that a liquid filled pressure gauge will constantly loose pressure as it heat ups. My gauge when installed in the backpressure regulator would fall steadily from 6 psi to 0 as the temp went up. I moved it inside the car and it holds steady. It just so happened that the engine rpm would start to drop and the engine would die as the pressure "was falling". The recirculating line dropped the fuel line temp by at least 30 degrees by infrared gun routed the way I described, the engine doesn't die as readily now.
My '57 Custom had no engine or radiator in it when I got it. The donor car was a '76 Lincoln. The first version was the stock 460 and C6. Since I had no radiator and I was stealing stuff from the Lincoln and the 460 ran cool in the Lincoln, I put the Lincoln radiator in the '57. The '57 core support was so far from fitting, I made a core to fit the radiator, hood hinges, inner fenders and frame attachment. The radiator was so wide, I had to notch the frame to fit. Unfortunately, the radiator was too close to the water pump to use the Lincoln 7 blade, 19" clutch fan. Instead, I installed the Lincoln shroud and a fixed blade fan. No cooling issues. Version two had AC, a 460 + .030 forged pistons with 13.0 CR, aluminum heads, and full solid roller cam that dino'ed 505HP and 555FPT and minimal over heating issues. The current version three still has AC but now sports the 460 with 557 ci stroker kit with 10.5 CR with a little over 700HP and 735 FPT. I assumed there would be over heating issues so I modified the core support to move the new largest, universal Griffin radiator forward to allow water pump clearance to add the Lincoln 19" clutch fan. With no thermostat, I broke the engine in and couldn't get enough temperature (160) to get the EFI computer in closed loop. I added a 190 degree thermostat. With a new engine (120 miles) and summer heat, the temp gauge and temp gun have not exceeded 200 degrees. The other day, I left it warm up for 20 minutes and then went for a drive of 15 miles. The temp never exceeded 190 degrees. The gravel guard and inner fenders are not modified except for the fender well headers. Compression, bore, timing, AFR, fan shrouds, and electric fans can all influence over heating issues so I'm just sharing what I did.
The Raunch Wagon had 550HP and the Griffin bolt-in radiator for the stock OEM core support. I tried the '98 Lincoln electric fan set up as pusher with OK results. I changed it to puller fan with better success but fan still ran a lot. I later changed to Cooling Components dual 14" fans and Dakota Digital fan controller, this setup just does the job and is still in the car in New Zealand.
I think it is really hard to beat a large mechanical fan with a properly fitting shroud on a large, 1 or 1-1/4" core radiator.
I agree, 195 isn't bad at all. Reminds me of a problem a friend had with his 55 Bird over heating a slow stop and go traffic, Birds are know for that and there are after market thing made to help. He did all of them including an aluminum radiator and electric fan. It did better at lower speed but got worst on the freeway. We pulled our hair out for a few days before I noticed how dark the anti freeze was in the overflow catch can. He had filled the system with straight anti freeze thinking that would be better :005: We got it back to 60% water 40% anti freeze and it never heated again..
I also do the 35-40% coolant to distilled water ratio.
I am running 70/30 (and a water wetter) and I added a coolant recovery can on the radiator. I have moved the radiator 2"forward but the belt drive system limits the space between the engine and the radiator for the factory type clutch fan I have. The only thing i haven't tried is is a shroud with the Flex-A-Lite fan I also have. Gary, your core support gave me the option to go to a bigger radiator seeing how you modified the hood hinges. It would be cheaper and easier to go with a simple EFI setup than buy a custom radiator. I will look at the Griffin universal fit radiator you mentioned. Thank all for the comments.
PIC 1 -- Griffin two 1" cores. This is a bolt-in into the OEM core support. I welded 1-1/2" spacers to push the radiator forward.
PIC 2 -- Cooling Components duel 14" fans with shroud. Using two fans allows the water pump to fit between the fan motors. The Dakota Digital fan controller allows setting the fans on and off at most any temperature. A run-after key off is optional. It also interfaces with the AC. The fans are 2 speeds. I wired both fans on low or both fans on high. Cooling Components does not rate their fans by CFMs. However, they do recommend a 70 amp breaker for each fan. I had a 200 amp 3G alternator and it nearly stalled the engine when the fans kicked on. The wiring recommendations are the heaviest of any electric fan I've messed with.
PIC 3 -- Very tight between water pump and radiator.
The lower part of the gravel guard was cut to install the pusher fan so it is still open. The fans did not run when going down the road...only in stop-n-go traffic.
Is there any chance that the cam timing was degreed in too advanced or retarded?
I have the same radiator moved 2" forward in a stock radiator support. The distance between the face of the radiator and the bolts on the water pump pulley is 3 1/2". I am using a (2) 8v belt setup from CVF Racing. The A/C belt on the left side of the engine limits the fan depth to about 2 1/2". The Cooling Components fan/shroud you used would not fit if I remember. Based on Griffin's recommendation I used Spal fans. I went with 12" and used a shroud wider than the core similar to how you mounted the CC shroud. I am using a Derale controller that is wired to turn both fans on high at 140 degrees, they can be turned on by the A/C or a manual switch.
The cam timing is supposed to be straight up.
Update... I spoke to Griffin again and they recommended a simple test to see if the airflow was sufficient. Put a fan in front of the radiator and see what happens after extended idling. I just tried this with mystifying results. It is/was 88 degrees ambient. Started the engine and let it idle for 40 minutes with the A/C on. All was really good the temp stayed at 180-185. Noticed the RPM starting to drop (it was under 500rpm and about to die) the fuel gauge showed 0 psi. WTF! Now I am REALLY looking at EFI, specifically the Edelbrock Pro4 system. Also designed a shroud for the 7 blade 18" Flex-a-lite fan I have. Haven't pulled any triggers yet other than the EFI tank.
The Mark VIII fans pull some serious airlow. and the l x w is almost perfect for the '57 radiators. Problem might be the thickness at about 5"......I can verify if you want and post pics. Problem might be finding one in a scrap yard as many Mustang guys have switched over to the MK fans. New motors and connectors are available @ Rockauto. Amp requirements are high..I'm remembering 60ish, but I'd have to verify. I know the 30 amp relay in my Ron Francis harness was not big enough, but Ron Francis does make a neat relay package, which is what I used.
With all that said, ............You may not want the look of a modern plastic shroud.
The aftermarket serpentine belt systems for FEs and 385s have a two belt designs. The second belt takes up valuable real estate. I had the same radiator in the same core support with similar shroud and fans (slightly bigger) and a 500 +/- HP engine. Mine had a 185 degree thermostat and the low fan on was set to 205 and high fan on at 210. Both off at 200 degrees. With AC on, both on high. The 16 lb radiator cap never popped...the over flow tank was dry. High under hood temperatures could affect vapor lock but I'm leaning to the fuel pressure issue as a fuel system issue. You have changed the fuel pump four times so maybe not a fuel pump problem. With the AC on and fans on high, could there be a low voltage condition to the fuel pump? So all the screens/filters have been checked. The sock in the tank is not restricted. The cap is venting so there is no vacuum in the tank. The regulator isn't sticking and bypassing back to the tank.
"The cap is venting so there is no vacuum in the tank. "
not to change the subject, but are you using a vented cap in your Custom?
There may be a fuel tank pick up issue, the gauge showed empty but I am pretty sure there was at LEAST 3-4 gallons in the tank. I will put 5 gallons in the tank today and try again. The tank was replaced and probably hasn't had 10 fill ups on it. I did have water in the tank a few months back and was unsure how that happened. The last time I drove to the gas station a couple of weeks ago the gauge showed about an 1/8 of the tank but the fuel pressure was swinging as the car accelerated or was braking... I am using the original gas cap and the vent line is clear I believe. I have a newish fuel filter before the pump and a clear one before the carburetor. Don't think that is the issue.
I appreciate the thoughts. I will check those things. Gary are/were you running fuel injection?
My description and pictures are of the Raunch Wagon and has a carburetor. My Custom has EFI. The wagon requires a vented cap but the Custom has a vent tube with an unvented cap. Little critters really like to build nests in the vent tube. If the fuel level is low, an electric pump will get real erratic when it sucks up an air bubble.
The smallest pin hole in a pick up will cause suction loss if the fuel level goes below it..
A vent issue............I cannot fill my tank without getting gas in the vent tube, and then it's like a siphon. Most of the issue is due to the fact I put the vent tube in the recessed mounting plate for the electric fuel pump, so the vent tube is under gas level when the tank nears full. I wished I had kept the oem located vent tube outlet on my new tank when I installed it, but I didn't knowing I was going to put the aftermarket tip over vent valve in, I trimmed of the tube for the oem location and welded it shut. I'm actually not sure why the oem vent tubes didn't have an issue with getting gas in them.
BTW, the second attempt at routing my vent line was up into the trunk, then around the edges to the oem outlet location above the license plate. No place in the line is below the top of the tank (except of course at the outlet valve)
I put 5 gallons in the tank and idled the car for almost an hour. I will check my vent but I think I did that when I changed the tank.
First 15 minutes: No A/C. Temp 180F
Second 15 minutes: A/C. Outside Fan. Temp less than 190
Third 15 minutes: A/C. No external fan. Temp Just under 200
Forth: No A/C. Outside fan. Temp dropping below 190 when I shut it down
Fuel pressure rock steady at 7 psi. Idle quality deteriorated with temps above 190. I shot the brass fittings on the fuel block and the infrared "temp" readings maxed out at 150F (not the actual temp). Ambient temp was only 83 today. I think my fuel pressure issue is no longer an issue. My fan/radiator combo is marginal, space constraints make solving that problem difficult. Any ideas about using my 18" 7 blade Flex-a-lite fan with a shroud? EFI?
"Any ideas about using my 18" 7 blade Flex-a-lite fan with a shroud?" Only that I think that's the fan that some have talked about as being dangerous....not sure if it was here or on the Hamb. That thought was also why I brought up the Mark VIII fan/shroud
I am having the same issue or at least similar with my Ranchero. It?s the stock 352 FE with a little larger cam than stock . I am also using the Griffin radiator with a 18 inch fan with clutch. 180 thermostat. It never really overheats but at idle it will run 190ish without AC on and 200ish with AC on . I was having fuel issues when I had a carburetor on it . Hotter it got the worse it idled and restarts we nearly impossible.
I have installed Fuel Injection on it with a return system and it runs so much better and thought my problems were fixed. Started right up hot or cold no idle issues when it was @ 190 until a few weeks ago.
Was going to Pomona swap meet and car was driving great then got in the line to enter Pomona. So after about 1:30 hour of waiting in line fo get in , car started to idle lower but temp was only 199 but could feel the heat coming from engine bay so pop hood open to let out hot air . That did help for a few minutes and then the car stalled . It had vapor locked . After about 10 minutes with hood up it would restart and was able to move to a safe place and let it cool down . Everything under the hood was heat soaked. The temp that day was around 100 and after the car cooled down ran fine and made it back home with no issues.
I have been pondering about the whole situation and let the car idle in my driveway for about a hour and started checking temps on all the components and noticed the intake manifold was getting real hot at the crossover and have been wondering if all that heat is soaking into the fuel system causing the problem?
I am thinking about plugging the cross over . Don?t know if yours is plugged . The only thing I have to decide if I pull the manifold off is what manifold do I install?.
I wouldn't be surprised if the fuel was leaning out with the higher temps. Ethanol fuel burns hotter and causes higher combustion chamber temps and higher exhaust temps. The cross over is heating the manifold plenum and Ethanol fuel evaporates easily with the higher temp. If you are using a cast iron manifold I would block the crossover, maybe fill it with an epoxy, I've seen people is a small metal piece but they usually burn through pretty quick. Just as a note a few months ago people were having a hard time finding Edlebrock manifolds, they were out of stock at many suppliers. They moved from Calif to somewhere in the southeast.. Castings are still made here but all other operations at the new place. Not sure if they are making them now or not I haven't kept up on it.
Yes Jim you know our fuel in Cali sucks , winter blend / summer blend and more $ ? lol . I am still running the original iron intake. I do have a few Fe intakes from a old school F427 Edelbrook to a Jay Brown 351 Cleveland intake adapter. That is my dilemma? lol
The Edelbrock heads have no heat crossover in them. I can buy no-ethanol fuel here so I may try that. It is coolish here today and I am planning on driving. I have a Blue Thunder dual plane with an oil filler tube. If I go with an Edelbrock EFI, it comes with a Victor manifold (it is an air gap design).
Quote from: dgasman on 2021-09-09 22:26
Yes Jim you know our fuel in Cali sucks , winter blend / summer blend and more $ ? lol . I am still running the original iron intake. I do have a few Fe intakes from a old school F427 Edelbrook to a Jay Brown 351 Cleveland intake adapter. That is my dilemma? lol
Yes we are stuck with our crap gas blends and at one time not long ago THEY wanted to adapt it to the rest of the country and I would be surprised if that doesn't happen in the near future
:005:
Choosing a manifold these days is a hard decision for sure. I had a factory 4V aluminum manifold on my FE that actually burned through the bottom of the cross over.
WA state has had the same issue for years. The '98 Explorer runs like you know what on the winter blend...especially if it didn't get taken out and run down the hiway now and then to clean it out. No problems here in MO...yet.
I got the EFI tank and I LOVE IT! It is larger than the stock tank and the pump flange is an SAE standard. It will accept the Tanks Inc. GPA series of pumps and it has a baffle built in around the pump pickup. The sending unit flange does not use the '57 retaining ring (which I don't like) but it will accept many different sending units including a universal one (10-73 ohms) that can be adjusted to fit the tank. Also the filler tube has the correct depth on the cap lock so the cap I will have a tight seal unlike the Auto City tank I now have. There is a vent line connection on the tank in the stock location and another vent is on the pump outlet as well. The tank comes with the straps and a drain connection. All in all it is PERFECT and it addresses several issues I have with my existing tank.
That's a good-looking tank, lynn! Great price too. First time I've seen pics of the drake tank with EFI setup............wish they were available many years ago. Strange your auto city's filler neck is not correct for the cap, First I've heard of that issue. The sending unit flange should be easier to deal with also. I had to piece together a unit to get the '57 style flange on a new unit.
Larger??? that's a surprise!
I ordered an efi tank as well. I've been dealing with heat on the fuel issue(fuel boiling at the pump & in the carb bowl) on hot Texas days with the external fuel pump as well. An in-tank pump should be huge advantage once I get the fuel pressure worked out to my F-Code teapot carb. I've already plumed a return line and have an Aeromotive boost referencing regulator so it should something I can quickly dial in.
I'm a little concerned with the fuel sender issue, so keep us updated on what you end up using.
Is the tank plated or painted? I ordered a couple wagon tanks last fall and they showed up with just metallic silver paint instead of the plating they normally have. I really prefer the plating.
Good question. What were the original tanks plated with?
What I am curious about is the proximity of the fuel pump to the sending unit. The Tanks Inc pump has a fairly large baffle/box, and I seem to remember a non-symmetrical hole pattern at the flange to ensure the pump is located in a front-to-back location.
The tanks Inc sending unit I used had a bolt-on flange rather than the twist-lock type. That bolt-on flange is what I removed, but maybe what is wanted for the Drake gas tank. The Tanks Inc sending unit is really well made, and available in many of the common OHMS ranges.
As mentioned before, attention will have to be made in regards to the floor brace at the back of the tank location, and I would recommend making some fittings that have the metal tubing run to the backside of the tank, and then down 3" or so for the flex lines to hook up to. Metal tubing is going to require a lot less clearance space than the rubber fuel line.
I installed the sending unit yesterday. The design is an universal one that comes in different ohm ranges. It is adjustable for depth and orientation. The flange is asymmetrical and only fits in one position but the sender can rotate. The float faces the rear of the tank and clears the baffle (barely). I checked the ohms with the float at the bottom of the tank it was 72.8 at the top it was 8. The sender is very well made and easily adjusted. The only mistake I made was the instructions have the top of the float set at 1/8" below the sending unit flange. I neglected to note that that flange is about 3/4" below the top of the tank. The distance to the top of the tank (not the sender flange) should be used to set the depth of the pivot point....
https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/gauge-sending-units?fr=part-type&SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=TAN-ORG
The tank is painted with some some kind of coating on the inside?
I ordered the GPA-4 pump today. Rich I already noted your advice out the fuel lines and I am waiting to see how the pump sits to make a plumbing arrangement.
I finally got the fuel pump in from Summit. Fed Ex took 10 days to deliver it! I bought a GPA-4 pump made by Tanks Inc., believing it would match the flange in the tank. Long story short it was too small to bolt in. I looked to see what I could find that would work but I couldn't seem to find a universal design with the same flange fitment. After a little thought I decided to make my own using the flange block off plate that came with the tank. I ordered two 90 degree bulkhead fittings, two AN to hose barb adapters, a fuel cell electrical bulkhead for the pump wires and an Aeromotive 11540 fuel pump. Summit will refund the cost of the GPA pump and the difference is about 75 bucks but I get a 340 lph pump instead of the 255 lph Tanks (Walbro) pump. I will take a few pics of what I am using when I get all of the parts assembled. I am moving ahead towards the fuel injection purchase. I am now leaning towards the The Holley Terminator X Stealth 4150 system. It uses a throttle body that looks like a 4150 carburetor but the ECU mounts separately along with the pressure regulator unlike the Sniper system.
I noticed that Drake has a Universal Fuel Pick-Up HR-9003 Which has the pickup tube, return line and wires included. It looks like an in-tank type pump could be mounted to this and used in their tank. I ordered one to check on FI 57/58 Tank I bought from them. I'm planning to use a high volume mustang style pump with their pick up assembly. I'm going to use this pump with my carb for now with an aeromotive bypass style boost referenced regulator. I currently have two fuel lines(one return) running to the front of the car now.
I'll update when I get the pump mounted and figured out.
I'd be curious what pressure you run from the electric to your carb. I am going to run a 406 tri-power on my 390.
Pat, I did see that but I didn't notice the flange. I should have called them to make sure that flange will fit their pump. Odd they didn't show a pic or mention the fit in the description. I think what I am doing will work with a lower profile than the one they are selling. Waiting again on FED EX for the pump.
Hugh, I have a Mr Gasket pump that is supposed to have a "high pressure" spring in it, unknown pressure output (I borrowed it from a friend). I have a low pressure return style Holley regulator that is operating at 7 psi on the carburetor now. The issue with the pump mounted outside the tank now is that it will not pickup fuel consistently with 5-7 gallons in the tank under even modest acceleration. The EFI tank has a box style baffle around the in tank pick up, to solve that problem. For the fuel injection I am going to need 58.5 psi so I will need a different regulator. I am planning on using an Aeromotive 13138 regulator with an adjustment range of 40-70 psi. Here is a pic of the baffle in the tank.
Thanks...I will remember that.
Well I finally received the fuel pump, fittings, and other parts and I spent the better part of a day putting the stuff together. I ordered a Tanks Inc. GPA repair kit and I modeled my pump assembly after theirs using the block off plate that came with the tank. I am very pleased with the results (assuming it works). The pump I used is an Aeromotive 11540. Here are pics of the assembly.
I finally got around to installing my EFI tank. The tank was at least an inch taller than the stock tank and slightly more square on the bottom, so rather than space the tank down I cut a hole in the trunk floor and notched out the forward floor support to run the lines. I used a 1/2" aluminum channel riveted to the floor to space the cover up for line clearance. I can now replace the pump without dropping the tank. Holley delivery on the system I am buying is 1/21/22 right now, but I am getting closer. I also reinstalled the mechanical pump so I can drive the car in the meantime. It is running really great in the 70's weather we are having now.
Clean install...looks really good! :003:
Notching the floor support, or drilling big clearance holes, is what I should have done. Good job. Now that you're going to have an electric pump, you may want to install an impact shut off valve. They're easy to find in a junk yard.....5 bucks
Put them on both EFI cars I built!