Not sure if anyone has encounter this issue, I notice after driving my vehicle right after, I open the hood and find engine oil inside on top of the hood (passenger side) almost like a spray of engine oil. Not sure exactly is coming from Y block 292 engine. I looked around, but I have not able to point out where is it coming from. I will keep on looking any advise would really help me out. Thanks in advance.
Probably coming out of breather cap. If you are still running a road draft tube check the filter for clogging. Of course it could be valve cover gaskets or a number of things and being blown around. Consider a PCV system.
No problem, I think you are right is coming from the oil breather. I installed a PCV system as close as I could I will check the vacuum lines & PCV.
Can you post a photo of the PCV install?
I actually drill a hole into the valve valley cover and took a vacuum hose and plumb into intake manifold. I saw an old diagram about the 1963 F100 were they actually use that port for a PCV hook up. I will post pictures of my work.
Important that the PCV valve flows in the right direction also, they are not all the same.
That and there needs to be a "trap" before the PCV valve to separate oil mist from fumes. This can be as simple as course steel wool in a can drilled with many holes around it's circumference and a couple in the bottom for the separated oil to drain bock.
When you do a PCV system plug the holes on the breather cap and route the inlet air from the block breather hole to a nipple installed in the air cleaner for fresh filtered air. If you leave the filler cap open dirty air will be sucked into engine. Sorry I am away from home and don't have pictures avail.
I believe I build a trap at the valley cover and plumb it to the intake manifold, I'm away from home right now ,but I will try to take some pics when I get home.
I bought an aluminum valley pan from John Mummert about 5 months ago, it has the pcv hole and baffle on it. It does not have any steel wool or anything inside the baffle. I called John before installing to see if it should have anything inside and he said it didnt need any but if I wanted to put something in there it would be ok. I did not put anything in the baffle. The pcv hose runs from the valve to the pcv hookup on my Summit carburator. The car runs as good as it did before the pcv add , no smoke or anything. I blocked off the crankcase filter on the side of the block. The valley cover does not leak oil and my aluminum valve covers do not leak. I made a 200 mile roadtrip to Dawsonville Ga. in October and when I got home it dripped a little oil on the floor. The oil level on the stick did not go down any ,probably only lost a spoonful or two but I hate leaks. I have taken several short trips since then and it does not drip when I get home. I dont know where the oil leaked from ,likely the rear seal or possibly the oil pump itself I just dont know.
Barry; You are sucking unfiltered air into your engine thru the oil fill cap with that setup. That steelwool in the cap is not much of a filter. Just saying.
PCV valve is connected to the Valley cover plumb to a three way (Y) that connects in front of intake manifold just underneath carburetor. This intake manifold vacuum fitting port is for the heater control vacuum valve. Vacuum line is around 1/4". I also have a small "trap" just underneath PCV.
For years, I had a PCV valve installed in the place where the draft tube mounted. I routed this to the Carb and then when I installed EFI, I connected it to that. Never had a problem. I assumed that air went into the crankcase through the oil filler cap. Below it is mentioned that this will bring in unfiltered air into the crankcase. Same would be true of the draft tube arrangement. Below is also mentioned that you should close off the holes on the filler cap and route the inlet air from the low pressure side of the air cleaner. That would make the crankcase supply air under the same vacuum as the PCV valve. I don't see how this would work.
Now that I will be installing a remanufactured engine, I am going to drill the valley pan to install the PCV valve. I had not thought about having a trap under the PCV valve. There is a baffle mounted to the bottom of the valley pan about 1/4 of the way back from the front of the engine. I don't know what the function is of this simple piece of shetmetal. I was planning to install my valve near the left rear on the valley pan. This location has the best access, but I do need to make sure that hose routing won't interfere with the accelerator linkage.
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2022-03-05 23:00
Below is also mentioned that you should close off the holes on the filler cap and route the inlet air from the low pressure side of the air cleaner. That would make the crankcase supply air under the same vacuum as the PCV valve. I don't see how this would work.
I never understood that either but it worked on all the later PCV systems on many cars. I use a filler cap from a later 60's 289-302, no holes to fill and has a port to connect a hose to air cleaner.
The air flow into the crankcase must be very low. The hole in the bottom of my PVC valve is quite small, 3/32". When I selected this valve, I looked for one from an engine with about the same displacement as my 292. What are you guys using?
Rich
I use this cap ( OEM 62-64 Y block ) that goes into the valley cover, it might help you offset the line away from the linkage. Then I have a short piece of hose to connect to a GM PCV, I don't recall the number but it fits many small block Chevy, Buick, Olds etc. The hole is much larger then yours.
The more research I do, the dumber I feel.
61 - 64 Ford pickups with 292's had a pcv valve. Seems to me that this would be a great choice. The location Ford used is where I will install mine. I don't know if there is an oil trap below it, but it seems easy to make one.
The first picture is a plumbing diagram that I found, but it seems needlessly complicated.
The second picture is from Rockauto and is the correct pcv valve for the 292 pickups.
The third picture is of a 292 engine with the pcv valve mounted.
Since I have the valley pan out, I can fabricate a mount for the screw in original type valve.
Rich
I had a better picture of the bottom of the valley cover but couldn't find it.
I have a four barrel carb so I use a modified version of the four barrel design. The part circled in red is totally impossible to find so I use the GM PCV ( blue part ) and made a new tube ( green ) that goes to the back of the carb.
Okay, what is the blue part and what does it do? And, do I need it? I was planning on running a tube from the PCV valve directly to the vacuum port on the EFI unit.
Great photo of the bottom of the valley pan. I can easily create a sheet metal piece like that. Is there anything inside of that void space?
Rich
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2022-03-06 15:14
Okay, what is the blue part and what does it do? And, do I need it? I was planning on running a tube from the PCV valve directly to the vacuum port on the EFI unit.
Great photo of the bottom of the valley pan. I can easily create a sheet metal piece like that. Is there anything inside of that void space?
Rich
The blue part is the PCV valve. Inside the void is the part with the nut for the screw that secures the cap.
This is what it looks like, don't laugh at my cartoon :003:
Hey, no laughing here. As always, I'm glad to be able to consult with others that have experience that I can tap into.
Below are two photos I found on the internet of a mostly stock install of a pcv valve on a Y-Block.
The first picture shows the connection point on the left rear of the valley pan, the second one is the stock Ford PCV valve installed in the intake manifold.
On my engine the second photo location has had a connection that goes to the boost side of the vacuum pump on the top of the fuel pump. I still have the vacuum wipers on my car. In fact, I've left in the fuel pump so that it can provide vacuum boost for the wipers - this is also connected to the heater control unit. If I remember right, the boost unit on the fuel pump raises the vacuum from -13 psi to -17 psi. The wipers work fine until you hit the accelerator, then the come to a stop. I did have the wiper motor rebuilt when I got the car 10 years ago. Using RainX on the windshield almost makes the wipers unnecessary, but I do want them to work. I've considered putting a vacuum accumulator in the car, there is lots of room in the driver's side fender well. (Yes, I know, I've gone off on a tangent here.)
Anyway, it appeals to me to use a pcv valve that is designed for this engine. The hook up to the valley pan (1st photo) looks like a Rube Goldberg lash up. I am currently considering building the "well" under the hose connection and connecting the vacuum line on the EFI unit to the wipers/heater control (if the wipers don't work well, I will consider reinstalling the fuel pump or consider the vacuum accumulator.)
Rich
QuoteThere is a baffle mounted to the bottom of the valley pan about 1/4 of the way back from the front of the engine. I don't know what the function is of this simple piece of shetmetal.
That is a baffle. It directs air flow from the filler cap (fresh air intake) from the lifter valley into the top of the cylinder heads to ventilate them.
The sheet metal piece at the rear of the pan is a splash baffle. It keeps splash from the distributor drive away from the road draft tube/PCV intake. It is not an oil baffle as it will allow oil mist to be drawn into the system. The misting is handled separately.
There are two types of PCV SYSTEMS, one OPEN (draws outside air via the
filtered oil filter cap) and CLOSED (draws fresh air via the ACL ). The oil filler cap is closed (no filtering element) and has a nipple to connect a intake hose to the ACL.
A quality oil filler cap will suffice. It will have a wire mesh that needs to be serviced or replace the cap on a regular basis. Original oil fill caps contained hog hair and had to be serviced at each oil change.
If you decide to go to a CLOSED SYSTEM, I would think you would want to do it tastefully as to appear as OEM. The CLOSED SYSTEM will also stop the stink of hot oil smoke after shutdown if you have a pressurized crankcase and/or bad rings.
To check proper operation, simply put a fuel pressure-vacuum gauge on the dipstick tube and verify 2-3 HG at idle. Proper air flow amount is determined by calibration of PCV VALVE.
Rich there are many different ways to set up the system that will work. But I would suggest not running it into the front of the intake manifold like the factory system for the 2V. That system leans out the front cylinders and adds a small amount of oil also. Going directly into the carb or EFI will better distribute to all cylinders evenly..
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2022-03-07 07:02
Rich there are many different ways to set up the system that will work. But I would suggest not running it into the front of the intake manifold like the factory system for the 2V. That system leans out the front cylinders and adds a small amount of oil also. Going directly into the carb or EFI will better distribute to all cylinders evenly..
Agreed.
Some people use a simple set up like this.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2022-03-07 09:53
Some people use a simple set up like this.
This is what I was considering at first, then got wrapped up in doing what Ford did on the early 60's pickup's. There are thousands of pcv valves available. Looking at what I selected years ago, I am pretty sure that my choice was not a good one. My valve does not have the spring loaded check ball. It's an empty chamber with a small hole in the end. I did see one just like it in photos that others had posted. It is a Duralast PCV1115DL. What are you guys using.
I can't measure any pressures until the engine is running, so what ever I do will be done before reassembly.
The one you had used is empty? that hardly makes it a valve and seems it would be sucking air/oil all the time?
I went with the homemade semi Ford design because they considered the long metal tube a cooling tube. I'm not sure how that science works but I'm guessing when the fumes cool the pipe the suspended oil will drop back down and not enter the intake?
The reason I used the GM valve was the one end is 3/8" and the other is 5/16" which matched the size of the outlet 3/8 in the cap and 5/16 on the carb and flowed in the correct direction. Flow direction is another consideration when choosing one. I got it backwards on my 223 six the first time.
Jim,
I just made an order with Rockauto for some of the things that I need and I included the Ford PCV valve used on the early 60's Y-Block engines. It was less than $6 so if I use it fine if not, it can be scrap metal. I now plan to install that in the left rear of the valley pan and I am pretty sure that I can avoid my cable accelerator linkage. I'll mock it up before I punch a hole. I'll also install an upside-down metal can and put a stainless steel kitchen scrubby in it. Not sure yet what I will do to provide air into the crankcase. Maybe the connection to the air cleaner would be the easiest. I think I will measure the negative pressure at the EFI and at the air cleaner to see if there is a differential pressure.
Rich
The PCV 2v version the threaded end goes to the intake, the 4V version the threaded end goes towards the valley, thats how I got mixed up at one time..
Jim,
Thanks, I am aware of that. When I was first looking at this unit I could well have installed it upside down. Finding installed photos of the pcv valve helped. The end that has the hose connection also has a profile that appears could be installed upside down into a regular PCV rubber grommet. The threaded end will go to the EFI connection.
Rich
Rich,
Sounds like you have the bases covered, good luck it should work that way.
Just as general info on the 4V unit the threaded end that the pipe attaches to is AN :P
Jim,
My engine is 2v, no 292's were 4v in '57.
Rich
QuoteMy valve does not have the spring loaded check ball. It's an empty chamber with a small hole in the end.
That is not a PCV Valve. It is a controlled metering device made for some CHEV engines that had a mixture problem with a PCV Valve.
QuoteI went with the homemade semi Ford design because they considered the long metal tube a cooling tube. I'm not sure how that science works but I'm guessing when the fumes cool the pipe the suspended oil will drop back down and not enter the intake?
Correct. The fumes are cooled and drops back before entering and fouling the valve.
IMO, you need to find the proper valley pan and use the 63/64 292 LT design. Drawing the fumes with the system that has the valve mounted in the valley cover directly will draw oil mist into the engine.
I would also not add any steel mesh under the pan as over time it will foul and you would have to remove the cover to service it (along with it possibly falling apart and entering the engine).
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2022-03-08 20:30
Jim,
My engine is 2v, no 292's were 4v in '57.
Rich
I was aware of that but many of us put 4V on them. The only 292 4V I know of were in larger trucks. Thats why I could never find an OEM 4V cooling tube.
I don't remember exactly, but there is not much of a HP boost going to 4V. And, the 2V EFI I have will pass way more CFM than the engine can suck in. The AOD had given me more zip than more HP would.
I got notified yesterday that my engine is going to arrive a week late. I pitched a bitch, but quite frankly, it's been so cold here that I am not spending much time in the garage. We have had high temps from low single digits all the way up to 75 last Sunday. 22 for a high today, warm again by the weekend. Wild weather.
Rich
Between performance and economy is a hard balance. I only use a 390 cfm 4V. So running on the primaries 95% of the time it is actually smaller then most 2V. Low end performance is good and mileage isn't too bad considering my rear gears, hiway average 17-18 mpg if I keep it at the speed limit, which is hard to do without getting run over..
Jim,
I get about the same mileage with my EFI and AOD. If I remember right, I am turning about 1900 RPM at 70 MPH. The big deal with the AOD is that is actually uses its first gear. The gear ratios on the Ford-O-Matic and AOD are the same for 1, 2 & 3, plus the O/D. It kicks into O/D at about 45 - 50 mph and I run it in that mode all the time.
It was +3 this morning, going to be 65 by Sunday.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2022-03-10 10:27
Between performance and economy is a hard balance. I only use a 390 cfm 4V. So running on the primaries 95% of the time it is actually smaller then most 2V. Low end performance is good and mileage isn't too bad considering my rear gears, hiway average 17-18 mpg if I keep it at the speed limit, which is hard to do without getting run over..
What ratio are your rear gears, tire size and transmission? I also have a 390 cfm carb that i plan to install on my 302 backed by a stick and o/d with 390 rear gears.
My tires are 215-14, gears are 2.4, 1.47, 1, .67, rear dif is 3.1.
Rich
Quote from: terry_208 on 2022-03-10 14:52
What ratio are your rear gears, tire size and transmission? I also have a 390 cfm carb that i plan to install on my 302 backed by a stick and o/d with 390 rear gears.
Trans is a T85 OD, rear gears are 3.89, tires are 215 X 14
I like the over all performance of the 390cfm, but at 90 mph it kind of flattens out like its gasping for air :003:
What is the correct valve cover decal. Previously, I had the one that said Thunderbird Special. I can't seem to find definitive information on what is correct.
Rich,
Neither decal is correct for the 292 2V. The "Thunderbird Special" is for the 312, the "Ford" one is for the 272. The correct one for the 292 looks like this....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353246226286?fits=Make%3AFord&hash=item523f1da76e:g:xqIAAOSw5k1cbGwo
Don't know if they are still being reproduced. I know for sure. That is what was on my mom's '57.....
Rich,
My original 57 had the 292 engine and when I overhauled that engine and detailed the engine compartment, I replaced the original "Thunderbird" valve cover decals with the "Thunderbird Special" decals because that was all I could find at the time. My current car has the 312, so the Thunderbird Special decal is correct for that engine. It would probably be fine for your new engine, but if you want to keep it original, I found a "Thunderbird V8" decal on Concours Parts that states it is for a 56 Ford but it looks very much like the 57 decal that was original on the 57 292 engine as well. The Ebay decals look to be correct but I can hardly see how anyone would pay $999.99 for a pair of decals unless the engine was included with them.
These decals from Concours are listed in the catalog at $10.50 each.
https://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?Parta~PartSort~A0~cadefice~~~~A100~A91
Good Luck,
Dave
Rich,
I just noticed that the link I posted didn't show the decal. The Concours catalog does have the decal and you just need to page through the decals to find it. The correct page is shown in this photo.
Dave
Dave,
I've got the same catalog. It says that decal is for the 1956 292 engine. I have never seen something that said it was for a 1957 292. However, if that is the consensus, that's what I will get.
Rich
The 1957 292 was ID'd as THUNDERBIRD -
Thunderbird V8 should be correct for a 292, that is what I used on both of mine.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2022-03-10 19:18
Trans is a T85 OD, rear gears are 3.89, tires are 215 X 14
I like the over all performance of the 390cfm, but at 90 mph it kind of flattens out like its gasping for air :003:
I just ran the numbers again, a 292 @ 4000 RPM sucks 338 CFM (at sea level.) Your carb would support 4588 RPM. I think the pistons fly out of the engine at 4587 RPM.
Rich
The stock Holley for the 57 312 is 410 cfm.
Ron.
My first call to S & J engines was January 10th, at that time, the desired delivery date based on info they gave me was March 14. This was not a promised date, but I treated it like it was and for the last two weeks they heard from me frequently. Well, the engine shipped today and they said it should arrive Thursday. If it does, I will be pleasantly surprised. I had allowed 2-weeks to finish my prep work, but the really cold weather now has me behind, but not by much. I think I have everything I need, including the valve cover decals that I ordered this morning.
As always, it's great to have all of you to consult with during a project.
Photos to follow.
Rich
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2022-03-15 13:45
I just ran the numbers again, a 292 @ 4000 RPM sucks 338 CFM (at sea level.) Your carb would support 4588 RPM. I think the pistons fly out of the engine at 4587 RPM.
Rich
With everything else being equal but with a 302 @ 2800 feet altitude, a 390 CFM carb wouldn't be quite enough carb to get the most out of my engine, would it?
Lets start off with "I am not a combustion engineer." However, it's really easy to calculate how much air an engine can draw in. Take the displacement and divide it by 2 (302/2=151.) (In a 4-stroke engine a piston only draws in air every other revolution.) Then multiply that by the RPM at max HP. (I don't know what that is for your engine, but lets say 4,500 RPM.) So, 151 * 4500 = 679,500 (we now have air intake in cubic inches per minute at 4,500 rpm) Divide that by 1,728 to get cubic feet per minute. 393.2 CFM. Going up in altitude will not make a reduction in the volume of air through the carb, but the air is less dense. Here where I live at about 5,600', we use .83 to make that correction (a 17% reduction.) I would say that you would not want to be at 100% of capacity, but I don't know what would be a better number. Maybe 10% or 20% more would work better. Another thing to consider is how often do you need to have 100% of your power available? Are you racing or just want to be first in line at Starbucks?
My EFI unit will make up to 350HP and it's the 2V one. A stock 292 is 212 HP and I was getting about 17 - 18 MPG on the old engine, I doubt that the new one will be much different. My 2021 Explorer has a 2.3 liter engine making 310 HP, it weighs about 600 pounds more than the Fairlane and gets about 23.5 MPG with the driving I am doing. That's 34% better than the Fairlane. When they say they don't make them like they used to, that's a good thing.
Lets start by saying I'm not a combustion expert or engineer.....Only flaw in the calculations is the numbers are "static". That is they don't take into count things like manifold design, exhaust scavenging, cam shaft profile etc. Now having said that, those numbers are good for developing a base line. They will also give you an idea of "over sizing" a carburetor.
A perfect example is the Boss 302 engine. Came from the factory with a 735 CFM Holly. Made "290 HP" (really 350 - 360). Add headers, the 289 Lemans cam and a 850 CFM, timing modifications and HP goes up to well over 400.
So how to size a carb? For the old shade tree guys like me I now look at (no longer have access to the tools I had when racing) what others have done, exhaust gas sensors and good ol seat of the pants. IMHO you can't go wrong with a 550 - 650 CFM on a "slightly warm" 312 with stock Thunderbird exhaust manifolds.
Just to add, I fully agree, "they don't build them like they used to" statement! The 16 F150 I drive with a 5.0, six speed and 3.55 gears gives a solid 20 - 21 MPG running along at 75 MPH. The Shelby GT500 gives a solid 19 - 20 MPG running along at 75 MPH with a 3.73 rear gear. That's while making 502 RWHP on the dyno! My Boss 302 in race trim gave 8 - 9 MPG (on the track) and after returning it to a street configuration (4 speed and 3.91 gears) a good day was 14 - 15.
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2022-03-15 13:45
I just ran the numbers again, a 292 @ 4000 RPM sucks 338 CFM (at sea level.) Your carb would support 4588 RPM. I think the pistons fly out of the engine at 4587 RPM.
Rich
When I had a tach hooked up I would run to 5200 rpm quite a few times in the lower gears. Only thing not stock is F code valve springs, only concern was bending a push rod. I didn't have a tach the few times I had enough open road to hit 90mph so I don't know what the rpm was..
The 1957 292 w/automatic is rated at 212 bhp (158 kW) at 4,500 rpm. I would guess you are falling off the peak of the performance curve by going to an even higher rpm. If there is a published redline, I did not find it.
The stock car with 3.1 diff (no o/d) at 4,500 RPM would be going 115.2 MPH. You might need a slight breeze behind you to achieve this speed. Also, a very straight road with no bumps. On the highway, I keep up with traffic. It will cruise at 75 all day long. And, with my new engine that won't burn or leak (I hope) I won't have to check engine oil every time I drive it. I think I'm wearing out my dip stick.
Rich
I'm sure I was over the max hp at that rpm but it doesn't happen often. 99% of the time I'm doing 65-70 on an open road.. In 1967 I had a 58 with a 292 2x4V and hipo cam with 3.25 and 3 spd OD and got clocked at 118 by Hiway Patrol but he only wrote me for 85..
Thats a lot Jim ! :icon_cyclops_ani:
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2022-03-17 09:09
clocked at 118
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2022-03-17 09:09
In 1967 I had a 58 with a 292 2x4V and hipo cam with 3.25 and 3 spd OD and got clocked at 118 by Hiway Patrol but he only wrote me for 85..
It's good to have friends when you need them. In 1970 I was crossing the panhandle of Oklahoma on US 54. Speed limit was 65 and I was doing 95, about all my little Triumph Spitfire could do. The cop wrote me for 20 over. Otherwise, he said he would have to take me to jail. I had to follow him to a US Post Office mail box and put cash in the envelope and drop it in the box, or put my drivers license in the envelope. I don't remember what the fine was, but it was a strain on my wallet.
Rich
Quote from: djfordmanjack on 2022-03-17 17:08
Thats a lot Jim ! :icon_cyclops_ani:
Luckily the officer was a car guy. He let me off easy because it was at 1:00 am and no traffic..
I told him I wish I had the ticket for 118 so I would have documented proof. He explained that would be speeding and reckless driving and would cause me more problems then it was worth..
I don't think I would have ever asked for a ticket with that big a number on it. However, I have had my Corvette up to about 130 several times, but only briefly. It's rock solid steady at that speed.
The statute of limitations has run out on the video below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGy1kPBR8-E&list=PLpOcKSzessf5SqJFFHV3x6DDX1Ra9kFLf&index=4
Rich
That is awesome Rich. When I was 20 in 1967 those speeds were easier to deal with, now at 75 the ranchero at 90mph gives me a bit of a scare.
I've always felt that our old cars were not safe at those speeds, compared to new cars, they are not safe in any wreck. The Corvette is designed for high speed and it has air bags and other safety equipment. However, it too is now 20 years old, but it's mine and I paid cash for it 10 years ago and I think it's still selling for what I paid for it.
I do have seat belts in the Fairlane, and power disk brakes and power steering. Other than that, I try to be careful when driving it. I figure that most any wreck would send it to the junk yard, or a parts car for someone else.
Rich
Quote from: ROKuberski on 2022-03-18 10:27
I figure that most any wreck would send it to the junk yard, or a parts car for someone else.
Rich
X2, if I survive a wreck I'll just salvage the engine, trans, and rear axle if possible..
I have disc brakes and seat belts but those are a minimal safety.
AH, the good ol days when we were young and bullet proof! Remember a night run in my 70 Boss 302. Straight road in southern WI, running along at 7500 RPM (3000 RPM = 60 MPH as confirmed by the IL State police) in the dark not giving a thought to deer or farm equipment (no slow triangles on stuff then) and living the "good life"! Kids and combat changed that a little, just never lost the need for speed.
young an bullet proof, after all those years I'm full of bullet holes now :003:
I never was bullet proof...just didn't have a clue.