Hey guys..390/trans question and advice

[Jeff Norwell]

I posted this over on the Hamb about a cam question. but maybe its just a drive line question and I want your opinions fellas...
you may have read it... maybe not...

I guess I am really asking about tranny options..here is the jist of that thread.
thanks in advance for your thoughts and opinions

.....Ok..I will try to narrow my details about this design...
I am building this 390 for my 57 300.
At first I was going to run a stick...TKO 600 5 speed with a 3.25 or 3.50 rear gear....15 rears and 14 fronts. Maybe the gear for this scenario are too tight.A 3.89 may be a better fit.I dunno.
The car will be a good road driver...every day and long trips.I want a O.D. cause I want the gearing and tranny for hi-way use.I ruled out a 4 speed just because of the O.D. issue... maybe i am wrong?... but the cost I figure would be about the same.
I still may use the TKO thought... but,I suspect after the 600 is bought and all the parts needed(P.P. Plate,clutch,linkage or hydralic throw out bearings,etc,etc) I could very well be into about 3-4 K.....
So I started to toy with the Idea of a well built C6 with a proper good street stall and internals(good and Bullet proof)(I am not really an auto guy.... but for ease of use.and hi-way driving..it may be a different route.

The engine/390....
Here is what i have.... a 63 bird 390(FMX TRANNY....No thanks) and a 67-68 4v 390 out of a Galaxie.(thats all I know about that engine at the present time.
the bird 390 is a runner...but I will rebuild either one I chose...well..just cause.
so.... I really would like to run a 3x2 on this set up,headers,good ignition and all the FE tricks out there. Can this engine be built for a budget of $4000 to $4500 ?
I was hoping to get a h.p. rating of any where between 360-390 horse.Maybe i am dreaming....
I dunno.
I also have a offy 360 4 barrel intake..but know nothing of its characteristics.
I relize a good 4v aftermarket intake is better than a 3x2 in performance... but I just love a 3x2 look.
I have the induction,got the headers....got the engines...so long way round the bush..I guess i was asking about a cam that would suit these needs.
I really don't want a 600 h.p. monster.... got one already... very fun... but it ain't the long distance hauler.

Thanks for all the input fellas... i sure others will benefit from this thread as well.

Jeff

[hogwagon]

We have been struggling with similar dilemma with a wagon. A T5 out of a Mustang will prob cost about the same as a fresh C6 and should be good with 3:55 gears. not as strong as the TKO but if your not going to beat on it any worst than a kid with a Mustang (like my son) it should hold up well with a smaller cash outlay. At least that's the illusion on paper so far.

[Ford Blue blood]

Jeff ran a 66 GT 390 with the Galaxie tri power and the mid 80s 4-speed od and 4:11 gears in a 48 half ton I built.  Ran down the road really nice, never got good milage figures because another fellow just had to have it before I got a lot of miles on it.  I used a 428 SCJ spec cam.  Sounded nice, was very managable on the street and made good power, worked well with the tri power with no mods other then a fresh build on the carbs, used the stock manifolds with 2 1/4 exhaust (H-pipe), turbo mufflers.  I would recommend 3:73s or 3:55s as the 4:11s were a little much because of the first gear ratio.  The RUG 4-speed bolted up to the stock 390 bell housing, used the stock clutch disc and throw out bearing.  Keep an eye out on the 5 speed as the input shaft is 3/4" longer then the older "standard" transmissions.  The input shaft will take the stock clutch disc and throw out bearing but you will need the adapter that is sold to make it all mate up properly.

[Ford_Crazy]

I am running a similar 390 in my 70A Custom.  The motor was built out of parts.  I found a good set of CJ 428 Heads for $400, adjustable rockers on EBay and a CJ iron manifold on this forum.  I like solid liter cams, so I had Holman and Moody grind me a 427 medium riser copy. My pistons are .30 over TRW flat tops w. valve reliefs.  The CR is 9 1/2 to 1.  Anyway, I am sure I don't have over $4,000 in the whole motor and it runs great with a single Holley 650. Probably putting out about 350-360 HP.  The 6V setups look great and I have run a few of them over the years.  You are going to have at least $1,500 in the carbs, manifold, fuel filter and air cleaner.  You will also most likely be dealing with old parts that leak and need a lot of work.  Just my 2 cents.  I am currently running a Ford Galaxie T-10 and a 3.70 gear. With 225/70 15s my car turns about 2,500 at 55 mph.  As you would expect my gas mileage is pretty bad, but that's just the way it is.  It costs money to have fun, so there you have it.  I have a 3.00 gear sitting in the garage that I can use if I want to go on a long cruise.  Changing the gear isn't all that bad once you get used to it.  You could consider it a poor man's overdrive.   

[57AGIN]

Jeff:

Rick and I are both running transmissions without OD and we really buzz the engines when going on the freeways to car shows.  My 57 has a T-10 with 3:70's in the rear.  Rick's 57 has a 427 Medium Riser mated up to a C-6 and I believe he's got 4:11's in the rear.  His engine buzzes even higher mine does.  For that very reason, as well as strength, I'm planning on going to a TKO 600, with a .64 OD gear.  I understand the engine RPM should be about 2000 @ 65 mph.  I don't know what my gas mileage will be, but there will be less strain on the engine for longer trips.  Maybe I'll even be able to do a power tour some day.

Bob
57 AGIN

[KidKourier]

Jeff,     A book was released 1st of the year by Barry Rabotnik (considered Guru of Ford FE's) that has tons of info on building the 390--also the 427/428 but lightly cuz the parts are expensive for these engines.He's entered FE motors in Popular Hot Roddings -Engine masters series,I believe it goes for $25.Ran a 390 in my '58 Courier with a Galaxie top loader 4-speed and 3:89 rear--SCJ cam,Edelbrock alum. man.,780 Holly,Hooker headers(about 350-375 HP) nice weight transfer.Back before od transmissions I'd run 25" tall tires on Cragers 5 spokes then change over to 29" tires when going long trips (LOL) . KID

[Hoosier Hurricane]

Jeff, you mentioned a C6.  It is not an OD trans.  Maybe someone makes an adaptor for an AOD if you want an automatic.  John

[Bubba]

Bros:
I've done some research on purchasing a complete TK600 to FE engine conversion kit.
The estimates I've received don't include the transmission crossmember but they include pretty much everything else including the shortened input shaft.  The Prices range from $4,000 to S4,200. Performance Automatic now makes an FE AOD high performance transmission but they around the same price as the TK600 kit.
BuBBA

[canadian_ranchero]

have you checked out a E4OD?they came in 90's trucks behind 460's.you can buy a stand alone trans controlers for them.they are a redone C6 with OD

[Jeff Norwell]

Thanks for all the input guys.
In my heart,I still want to go stick.... and a TKO is leading the pack. It's always so damn expensive in either direction. There is nothing cheep except chevys... and if I wanted that.I would build a taxi cab.... hahahaha.

All stable advice and good thoughts.
canadian_ranchero/.I will check the E4OD Trannys.
Bubba/ Yea..... I have researched this TKO cost as well... about 4k to get all what is needed.I already have a FE bell and my car has pedals...but clutch pressure plate etc.etc and the tranny bring up the costs.
Hoosier Hurricane/I may give my pal Pat McQuire a holler and see if a AOD adapter is beng made.
KidKourer/I will look for that book....seems to be another one to have for valuble info.
57agin/.... yea..this is the problem I have with one of my other cars right now... I just think there is now way around it..I really want to run highway for long trips.
Ford_Crazy/.... Phil,I have followed your documented build and it provides great inspiration.... I definitely know I definitely know I do not want to run a solid lift cam.and keep maintaining lifter adjustment every 500 miles. But thats me.I am not really worried about gas mileage.....if so I would buy a Prius(shudder!!!) ha ha ha .Your build is very much the look and feel of what I am trying to attain.
Ford Blue Blood/... What is a RUG 4 speed?. I have never heard of that or that term.I have thought of a Stang 5 speed but I did not know if an adapter is made.I was also kinda worried that the shifter might reach past the bench seat.... Again.I will look into lengths and adapter availability.I know i can find a good World Class cheeper than a tko.But..Your right..I wonder if it will hold up to the torque of an FE?
Hogwagon....Your my kinda guy! hahahah

Anyways.I will have it figured out soon.
But hey.....Different question..I heard a rumor... does a 57 ford crossmember have to be altered ot modified to slip a 390 FE in the car?
I was always under the impression it was a direct swap..... I was speaking to a fella yesterday and he said that because the FE was a front sump engine..I would have to modify the front member....

You guys are the best.... and again...... a terrific site and wealth of info.

best

Jeff

[Ford_Crazy]

You will not need to modify the crossmember.  The FE motor drops right in if you turn the Y-Block motor mounts around backward.  My T-10 trans mount lines up pefectly with the transmission cross member.  The big problem is headers.  The collectors usually come down right in front of the transmission cross member.  Crites makes a modified crossmember or you can fabricate one.  I used Ford Power Train shorties and they work without modifying anything.  If you run an automatic, you have a lot more choices.

[Jeff Norwell]

Thanks Phil..I thought so.

Jeff

[Ford Blue blood]

Jeff wish I could give you detailed specifics on it, came in F-150s in the mid to late 80s and in Mustangs in the mid 80s.  Just not sure of the exact years.  They are floor shift and the shifter is a side mounted rail that has two postitions or if out of a Jeep mounted on the top case plate.  It has a four speed shift pattern but is a 3 speed with 4th being OD.  It is almost identical to the top loader and T-10s in size, is an aluminum case, the shifter will come out the floor about the same place the T-10 did in the 63 - 64 Galaxie.  The 390 in my truck was over 300 HP and I ran it hard, no slicks, just street tires, never had a problem with it.  Just real fun to drive.  As my dad would say "it's a gutsy s. o. b."!

[JimNolan]

Jeff,
   The transmission he's talking about isn't for big engines. You can read all about it at davidkeetoploaders.com. Look under Toploader Imposters. I don't think you'd be happy with that transmission. For a small engine car it would be feasible. I think the overdrive is .8, don't quote me. Read about it.
   As soon as my 63 get's out of the paint shop I'm taking the new 3.25 Trac-Loc out of it and putting it in my 57. I'm running smaller tires now ( 205/75/14- 25.4" actual running diameter) and I can stay above 1700 rpm at @ 65mph. I'll be getting 1789 rpm at 65mph with that setup. It's 2037 rpm with the 3.70 rear gear I have now. 1700 rpm is the bottom end of the torque range for the 390ci engine. Anything below that and you're lugging the engine.
  The only advice I'd give you on which transmission to go with would be this. Take the expense of the transmission installation and divide it by the amount of mileage you'll put on the car. If you gear it so low you can't afford to put gas in it, the expense will be large. If you gear it to where you can drive it anywhere at any time at a cheaper cost, the expense of the transmission installation won't be as high. Jim

[KidKourier]

Jeff,   Check out KeislerAuto.com--- they have designed a new 5-speed tranny after the Tremec TKO series with 3 different torque ratings RS400-RS500-RS600 but with a smaller case than the TKO which should make a easier install in the trans tunnel! Their RS600 kit runs $2,999.  Keisler Engineering,Rockford,Tn.(865-609-8187. KID