Rack & Pinion Steering for '57 Ranchero

[bagboy]

I started out with a GEARHEADS CRUISER PRODUCTS  605 box 'P.O.S' AND IT COMES WITH no CUSTOMER SERVICE. next we installed a wurth-it rack.BEEN DRIVING CAR FOR ALMOST 4years with no trouble.The car drives as good as my late modle CROWN VIC. If this dosen't do it I can show some pictures of GEARHEADS  workmanship,that should do it

[Ford Blue blood]

Kid if you can get about 6 degrees positive caster in the alignment that might help.  That ol 50 just wasn't set up to put that much caster in it and that might have helped a lot with it.  That much caster will grab the tar strips in the road and increase the slow speed tight turn steering effort some.  After the caster is pushed out then play with the toe-in/out.

[RICH MUISE]

Bagboy..what are you using for a pump?  Rich

[KidKourier]

   Ford Blue Blood, Thanks for the tip! right now I'm running 1.3 degrees positive caster on both sides with 0.15 positive toe both sides and 1.3 degrees positive camber again on both sides. So you think going to 6 degrees positive caster and playing with the toe-in/toe-out will help the twitchiness at speed and how will it effect tire wear?Also what range would I be looking for as far as toe-in/out? Again, thanks for the tip! KID

[Ford Blue blood]

Changing the caster will not effect your tire wear.  I would definately get rid of the positive camber!  Get the camber to zero or even 1/4 negative!  That may be one contributor to the "twitch".  As far as toe goes it's a crap shoot, start with the minimum stock specs call for, drive it, make an adjustment and drive again.  Always use the same road for your test drives to make sure what you are doing is giving what results.

[bagboy]

Ford pump 60's ,off 68 must. I think

[Ford Blue blood]

Also forgot to mention....make sure your pulley sizes match the original.  Running the pump too fast will make things wierd and too slow will increase effort.

[RICH MUISE]

Bill: Would a too large of a pump pulley cause the problem Kid is having..being too touchy? Logic would tell me it would if too small a pump pulley increases effort required.  Rich

[Ford Blue blood]

Crank pulley vs pump pulley.  Generally speaking the pump is driven at a lower RPM then the crank......crank pulley is a smaller diameter then the pump pulley.  Running the pump faster would raise the pressure and would give him the symptoms listed.  Still need to bring that camber in to zero or a very small negative. 

American cars are designed on purpose to under steer (older and general transportation types) as it is the easiest situation to get out of.  The car will not turn, the front end "plows", to correct simply slow down, this is done by the suspension design. (or lack of)  As the body rolls in a turn the outside wheel actually tilts out on the top, the inside wheel tilts in at the top, net result is reduced tire contact.

The positive camber actually exagerates the action and starts it earlier.  1.3 is a butt load of camber either way and will cause excessive tire wear.

[KidKourier]

Bill,   You got me curious so I went out to check the pullys,I have a stock '57 pump running a 3 3/4"-4" pully measuring acrossed the face (lip to lip) and a 7"--3 groove crank pully(also measured across face) are these right?Now to find a good frontend aligment person,most use computer programed alignment machines that don't go back to '57.The settings I gave was set after I gave the alignment specs out of the '57 shop manuel to the tech! So your saying he blew it on the settings listed? KID

[RICH MUISE]

Bill...trying to dot my I's and cross my T's, I've got more questions popping up in my head..
First... are the front end alignment specs you were talking about for '57 Fords in general regardless of steering set-up, or adjustments to help the over sensitivity of the Rack and Pinion set-up?
Second...trying to understand the whole pump vs. pulley thing...with the Rack and pinion in mind...I'm assuming some things here
A) different pumps may operate in different pressure ranges (although most I'm guessing would be the same range)
B) I would think you would normally want to use a pump operating in the range the (Cavalier) rack was made for, but since the rack is being used on the '57's rather than a cavalier, would that still be the case?
C) With pulley size affecting pump pressure output and therefore "touchyness" of the R & P, it seems to me that engine rpm would also affect it..which means the faster your going, the touchier the steering response..backwards it seems from what you would want. (brings to mind the Mark viii setup again). That seems like it would also mean that if we had two '57's with identical setups except for drivetrain  gear ratios resulting in different rpm's at a given speed than the other, that the one operating at the higher rpm's for the same mph would have a touchier steering setup...meaning that what would work for one car may be a little different for another? It would seem like the pumps should have been designed to operate within the same pressure range at a minimum rpm thru the higher rpm's and regardless of pulley sizes or rpm's... or even better..less pressure the higher the rpm's..  Rich

[RICH MUISE]

Also..
Kid: LOL.. One of the things I thought I was going to miss on my '57 with the change-over to Rack and pinion was the fact that I sort of enjoyed the old car feel of having to constantly be moving the steering wheel.
The reason I keep thinking about the Mark viii set-up is my plans are for the 4.6 dohc out of a Mark...so I'm wondering if there is anything I can do to also transplant the automatic steering response adjustment feature of the Mark viii...or if I'm going to get it anyways if it happens to be a function of the Markviii steering pump. Also...I'll be using a hydro-boost brake booster which is powered from the steering pump..so I'm wondering if that will affect the R&P? If it is only the Mark viii steering pump that is what controls the touchyness of the response, it seemps like they would be a good choice for all those with R & P setups.
Nothing in life is simple is it...I need another nap.  Rich

[Ford Blue blood]

Lots going on here.....Kid first, not sure of the pulley size as I do not have a power steering 57 to look at.  My 351C setup in my 36 is the same size pulley on the crank and the pump.  Could be right, the book calls for 700 - 900 psi output from the pump.  Alignment specs given on page 4 - 4 of the book call for caster to be 1/2 - 1 1/2 degrees, camber 1/2 - 1 1/2 degrees and toe 1/16 - 1/8.  The small caster spec is to ease the steering effort.  Not sure where your guy got the specs from but they don't make sense, going with the stock specs but increasing the caster is the way to go in my mind.

Rich,  The front end specs should be the same reggardless of the steering system used.  Changing them from stock will have predictable effects, some good, some bad.  Increasing caster tends to make the car track straighter with no input, the wheel returns home after a turn easier, but steering effort is increased.  And as is the case with most everything....more is not necessarily better....3 - 6 caster, 1/4 - 1 camber and toe all need to be taken with a grain of salt.  Those numbers should put you close to a comfortable drive.
Pumps and pulleys, I believe the new systems run at a much lower range then the older systems did.  I have a number stuck in the back of my head but can't reference it, that the Muzstang II rack is in the 3 - 400 range. 
Yes, the ideal set up is to use the same pump and pulley ratio as the donar vehicle.  The 50 Chevy I did I used all the parts from the donor but did swap the pulley on the pump to match the ratio from the Grand Prix.
The pumps all have a pressure relief valve on the output fitting to keep them in a specific range of pressure and flow.  But if the pressure increase to a point beyond the valve limits it will reflect into the system as a higher pressure.  Doing a little math with pulley ratios will show a great RPM increase in pump speed with just a 1 inch increase in crank pulley size.  Not sure how the Mark VIII did there variable ratio steering.  My 98 LSC had a vacumn booster,some of the earlier 4.6 Mustangs and the Terminator had hydro booster, not sure the MK VIII ever did....

Hope evryone is thouroughly confused now....

[RICH MUISE]

Lots of great info, Bill. Thanks. You and Gary (Canadian Ranchero) are like having a set of interactive encyclopedias. I've got to print out this thread and put it in my "Rich's '57" book for reference when I get to that point.
P.S. You are correct, the Marks did not have hydro-boosts..I got mine of an '01 (?) Mustang. I'll see if I can find out more info on the variable steering system in the Mark.

[canadian_ranchero]

i agree with the more caster to help the steering feel.i have been researching using the mark varyable assist p/s system,but am not sure if it is compatable with the hydra-boost.96-02 mustang do not have the varyable assist,so not sure if the lower pressers will operate the hydro-boost properly.more research is needed