Looking at a Custom 300 Tudor for sale...need some advice

[ScottG]

There's a 1958 Ford Custom 300 for sale locally that I'm interested in looking over.  As this would be my first experience with '57-'59 Fords and, since the '58's share quite a bit with the '57's,  I thought I'd tap into the collective knowledge here for some pre-inspection help.  I do know that these cars were known for rusting pretty badly and that build quality was suspect, so I'm really most interested in learning where I need to inspect most closely for problems.   Of course I welcome any of your experiences or insights that would help me better evaluate what I'm looking at.

As for the car, its a '58 Custom 300 Tudor (2dr post) running a 223 and backed with a 3spd w/o OD.  It's about as stripped as one of these ever got (no armrests!) however someone did spring for a heater, AM radio and (maybe) the passenger side sunvisor.  A previous owner repainted the car and reupholstered the interior in a manner the is respectful (but not exact) to the original materials and patterns.  I don't know much more than that other than the seller says it's "remarkably solid" underneath with new outer rockers and that it supposedly runs and drives pretty good.  The bad news is that it's a used-car dealer that's selling the car.  The good news is that he's had it for awhile and the price is slowly coming down.

Further, since it's a dealer selling the car I'm not at all worried about trying to beat him up on price.  As such, I'm curious what you guys think the market is for these right now.  I can find a fair number of similar '57's around but few comparable '58's.  The '57's do seem far more loved than the rather homely '58's so I'm thinking that they are also valued (monetarily) more than the '58's.  Also, the six/stick combo seems to depress values but I'm not sure how much. (For reference, Hagerty's price guide is suggesting $6800 (#3 cond.) to $8900 (#2 cond.)  with a -20% deduction for the straight six.)  Again, your thoughts and experiences would be much appreciated.

Finally, while I did attempt the search function, if my questions have already been covered in previous threads, please feel free to redirect me.  No need to reinvent the wheel at my expense.

Thanks in advance for the great site and any help that you can offer.  If things work out, maybe I'll be able to actively participate here with a 'new' Ford in the garage.

Scott G.

[hiball3985]

One advantage of the 223 I6 is the seller can't claim his 272/292 is a 312 I like the 223 if it runs good and just using it for normal driving. I like them and still run one in my truck..

For prices, they vary all over and you can never really find two cars in the same condition to compare. Just pay what you are comfortable with and feel the cars is worth to you..

Rusted floors are always a problem, check them closely..

[John Palmer]

Scott, IMO, I'd walk!

Please understand my narrow view is from the car land of sunny Southern California, and I grew up in dry Arizona.  Unrusted cars are still widely available. 

In my experience, it's much cheaper (in the long run) to buy a better condition car to fix up, than buying a car that's advertised as already having had "the outer sills replaced", and without photo proof and knowing who did the work, I would suspect it still has cancer left inside it.

I would be more concerned about the hidden rust, than the 223 six cylinder.  My Ranch Wagon came with the 223, but now has a 351W.  Engines and transmissions are easily interchanged, not so with RUST.

It's just a thought, hard to say without a very close inspection and many photos.

Good luck with what ever you buy.

[terry_208]

I agree with John. Much better to begin with a good vehicle rather than a suspect vehicle.  Almost all of these beautiful old vehicles have rust, somewhere.  It is much better to begin with as good of an example as you can.

[ScottG]

Thanks for the input.  Unfortunately I live right in the heart of the rust belt and finding something (anything!) without tinworm is either unlikely or very expensive  and  shipping a car from the west is beyond the scope of my budget at this time. So my task with any vehicle not wearing its original paint is to evaluate whatever work has been done (quality, etc.) and what rust has been missed, incompletely repaired or simply covered-up with intent to deceive.  Since I'm looking for a driver mainly for the purpose of introducing my kids to the hobby and making some 'fun runs' around the state, I can live with some imperfections.  But you're right, I don't want to buy trouble.

I did speak with the seller (via email) and he did indicate that the inner rockers were not replaced at the same time as the outers.  Initially that didn't bother me too much as I once worked on a '47 Packard that had rusted outer rockers (the bottoms were gone) but the inner sill still had factory primer and didn't need a thing.  But these aren't Packards and your comments give me pause.  Wouldn't I be able to get some idea of their condition by pulling the carpet back along the sill and poking around or am I thinking of this the wrong way?

So this is why I'm looking to learn from you about where these cars have the biggest trouble spots so I can look at them closely and try to make an educated decision.  Of course when I look out the window at our gloomy weather, maybe moving west might just solve two problems at once!

By the way...the 223 doesn't bother me at all.  After doing a bit of reading here, I've learned quite a bit about FE swaps and have been building one in my head ever since.  In the meantime, the 223 would be perfect to demonstrate tune-up/fluid changes to the little mechanics in the garage.

-Scott G.
   

[terry_208]

A good place to check the inner rocker panels, IMHO, is around the floor supports. Mine had a couple with rust holes in them near where they were welded to the rockers.  Also the floorboards themselves can be seen from the bottom.  My floors looked good until I hauled it the 340+ miles home and a lot of each panels were missing! Others will be along and give more insight.

[Ecode70D]

Carefully inspect the back seat area. Look and see if the back seat does not match.  Check the back inner panels to see if they are just cardboard or if they are covered.  Check the vin.  This could be a business coupe that someone put a back seat into.  See if the inner wheel wells have a rubber boot on them.  A lot of that was done in the old days.   

[ScottG]

Interesting to hear about business coupe conversions.  The VIN that's listed with the ad has code P which indicates the Custom 300 line but I think I'll have to look at the data plate for a body code to verify that it's really a Tudor and not a business coupe.  Speaking of VINs, do these cars have the VIN stamped anywhere other than the data plate?  I know my '68 Mustang had the VIN stamped on the inner fender top and on a body tag screwed to the firewall which were helpful in confirming that the dataplate hadn't been fooled with at least as far as the VIN was concerned.

Also, thanks for the clues to help check for a possible "swap" from business coupe to Tudor.  However, could you clarify the comment on the inner wheel well having a rubber boot?  I'm having trouble envisioning what you mean by that.

-Scott G.

[Lgcustom]

Also, look carefully at the base of the A posts. Mine had rust there on both sides and there are no replacement parts made for that. It took a lot of fabrication to make that ok again.

[Wirenut]

When I restored my 57 the only place I saw the vin stamped was on the top of the frame when I removed the body.
I bought mine repainted and it looked good but when I winched it up on a gooseneck trailer for the ride home it was dissapointing to see how much I had missed by not spending some time under it inspecting. I ended up replacing all of the lower section of the body and the rear left floor pan. I woul recommend getting it in the air to inspect thoroughly, inside the trunk where the quarter panels come together, open the doors and check the bottoms where the drains holes are.
Good luck with your inspection and decision.

[RICH MUISE]

I'll double down on what Terry and LG said. See if the seller will let you poke around with a screwdriver underneath where the floor supports meet the inner rockers.
How is the paint job? is it an older paint job, or a recent one done to help flip the car? are the door jambs done? I ask because, if not a very thorough paint job, at least it'll give you some original areas to investigate. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's important to try and figure out WHY the car was painted. It may have been a ligitimate restoration thing, or a cover-up to increase market price.
fwiw, I've found almost all classic cars in used car lots are actually there on consignment and the car dealer doesn't know diddly squat about them. The guy may be truthful, but maybe not making accurate statements because of his lack of knowledge about the car.

[Ray]

The VIN should be stamped on the passenger side of the frame right behind the shock tower in the engine compartment.

[ScottG]

Rich:  Lots to think about.  The paint job is not recent as the seller has been pretty up-front about some road rash/paint imperfections although it appears to be holding up well (at least in the pictures.)  And while I can't comment on it's quality without seeing it in person, I'd bet that it wasn't done just to flip as I doubt many flippers would undertake a two-tone respray that involved removing a good deal of the side-trim and filling all of the mounting holes plus spraying the jambs and firewall to match.

Your comment on dealers is something to think about as well.  I'm usually (very) skeptical of these guys but when you're trying to (or must) stay relatively local with the search sometimes you have no choice.  Then again, I suppose "John Q" on CL is just as likely to try to rip you off as a dealer.

And thanks, Ray for the VIN location. 

   

[Ray]

Scott, you're welcome. There should be at least one more location and maybe two on some cars. The one that should occur on all cars should be on top of the cross piece at the top of the differential hump. That's the one that law enforcement generally goes looking for when something is in question. Good luck.

[ScottG]

I phoned the dealer today and, while definitely not an expert on 57-58 Fords, he was willing to answer all of my questions.  I found out that the car is not on consignment but was purchased from a local estate so the dealer knows little of its history (all work done by previous owner/ not sure when but didn't think it was recent/car was used as cruiser not show/not sure how long p.o. had owned it).  According to him the paint is not new and gave me a fairly lengthy list of problem areas most of which seemed minor and were primarily related to age and use.  He claims the floors and trunk are in good shape and was willing to put it on a lift so that I can take a look at it.

**HOWEVER** when he noted that the outer rockers had been replaced he claimed that there were no inner rockers installed by whoever did the outers.  Is that even possible?  My first thought, based on some of his other comments, is that he just doesn't know what he's looking at.  Did Ford design this area in a way that might look unfinished to a younger guy not familiar with these cars?  But then I started to wonder...

Let's say, he's right and that there is no inner rocker.  Wouldn't that result in an outer rocker that flexes, doors that don't fit right and no way to attach the floors and their supports?  When I first looked at pictures of this car I actually thought the panel fit was better than most 57-59's that I'd seen so to think there's really no inner rocker panel seems hard to believe.  But when I asked him to describe the situation a second time, he insisted that the inners were not rusty...there just were no inners at all and reinforced his assessment by saying he can run his hand along the inside of the outer rockers!?!

So, could anyone with experience take a guess at this?  (Pictures of what the backside of what the rockers should look like would be even better because I just can't imagine this.)  The dealer seemed up-front about the car, was not at all pushy on the phone and, at least for a six/stick combo, the price isn't "too-good-to-be-true."  But if he's right, is the car even worth the 90 minute drive to see it?

Scott