update on Rich's build

[RICH MUISE]

Thanks, Gary!
Thanks, Gary!
I've got the car jacked up inside today trying to fit the lap belts. I'll get the car out in the next few days, clear the codes, and run new ones.

[RICH MUISE]

I was just sent a message by a Hamb member who is the guy that owns the alternator/starter shop in town that rebuilt my alternator last week. He's going to search for a solenoid with suppression diodes, said he was pretty sure they were available. cool. I was planning on lots of calls tomorrow looking for one.

[canadian_ranchero]

if i remember correctly all of the late 80's and 90's fords with fuel injection and the remote[fender mounted]starter relay had the diodes in the relays

[lalessi1]

I am really curious about how all this works out. I read a post about doing this on GM and it seems  the purpose of the remote solenoid is to relay the actuating voltage to the existing solenoid as opposed to the direct voltage to the existing solenoid? Seems wierd. The reason that I ask is I have a new MSD starter for my FE and it has a solenoid mounted on it. The wiring diagram shows it hooked up like the post I read. I feel like I am missing something...

[billd5string]

I can shed a little light on the GM issue: the GM solonoid also doubles as a relay, passing high voltage to the starter motor. The problem is that when they get hot (from headers), the relay part doesn't work well. But if you wire up a ford Solonoid (which is really a relay) between the battery and the starter, and just wire all three wires on the GM solonoid together. then as soon as the Ford solonoid passes power to the unit, the solonid gets power to kick the starter gear out, and the starter motor gets power to spin the engine. However, the relay curcuit is bypassed, which is the weak link in the system.

Long winded, but I hope it helps.

[gasman826]

I'm using a PowerMaster starter which is similar to the MSD start in that they both have the solenoid/relay attached to the starter.  I jumper wired the positive starter post to the starter solenoid wire.  The starter and solenoid are both activated at the same time via a Ford late model, HD relay (with diode) in the trunk next to the battery.  This is done to eliminate a 'hot' cable running nearly the length of the car rather than a heat soak problem.

[RICH MUISE]

Update...my local guy here found a relay with suppression diodes. It should be here by end of the week.
In the mean time, my hot start issue has move up to a no start issue, regarless of how long the car sits. I've spent 3 hours this afternoon , first, trying to replace the solenoid with the starter still in the car. That wasn't working...not sure why, but just can't get the plunger on the solenoid to get over/into the slot on the starter thingy. Most of the time spent has been trying to get at the third bolt on the starter. I'm going to give it one more shot before putting the tools up for the night.
I guess at this stage I'm just hoping the total problem is a bad solenoid, and not  totally to do with excess heat. I also bought some exhaust wrap to help with the heat issue. The remote starter on order I'm getting as a backup in case replacing the starter mounted solenoid doesn't do the trick.
Anyway, had the car not turned into a no start issue in the driveway, I would have had a shop with a lift do the work....this is really difficult on jackstands.

[lalessi1]

OK, to get this straight in my mind... there are a few things going on when the switch is turned to start the car..

1) At an electrical relay... a small wire (from the switch) causes a large battery connection to be made directly from
    the battery to the motor that starts the car.

2) At the starter motor, gears on the starter motor physically engage the gears on that starter motor to the flywheel.

On 57's those two things are accomplished by two different things... one is the starter relay that is mounted on the fenderwell for function one. The second one is accomplished at the starter by the Bendix drive, a mechanical device.

GM cars have traditionally used a solenoid that does both and it is mounted on the starter.

Am I correct that Ford in later designs replaced the Bendix with a solenoid mounted on the starter while keeping the relay mounted on the fenderwell?

Did Ford combine the relay /solenoid function like GM at some point? When?

These are questions/comments for the curios minded.. corrections and answers are encouraged!

[RICH MUISE]

I believe what you stated is all correct, but I'm with you in needing confirmation. It's my understanding Ford did use the firewall solenoid up into the 90's on some vehicles, so one would have to assume they went to the combined relay/solenoid like GM at some point on everything. For me, that brings up the question ....... does the starter mounted solenoid have suppression diodes, or has something else been done to alliviate the need for them in the newer solenoid wiring.

[Ford Blue blood]

Rich,  Been following your problem and am at a loss.  My MK VIII wiring book went with the car when it was sold.  I'm in the starter/ignition switch as the faulty party line of thinking. 

One of the issues that causes starter engagement problems has been found to be too small a gauge wire for the solenoid.  Some wire kits use 16 ga. when 14 ga. is what is required. 

Also check your crimps on the connectors.  The symptoms you related with respect to timing and development of the problem would lead one to suspect a failing connection.  Loose crimp, corrosion, or loose connection. 

I do not think the computer tells the starter to engage.  I believe that is a straight switch to starter with a separate contact to tell the computer you are starting the engine.  That is how the 2001 Explorer is wired.

Wish I could help more....good luck.

[RICH MUISE]

Thanks Bill. I've already installed a new ignition switch, and it didn't help any. I've got to chase down and verify the two smaller wires connected to the solenoid....one at the small terminal, and a heavier gage one at the Bat terminal on the solenoid. I believe that larger one is from the ignition switch terminal on the fuse panel, haven't located the smaller one yet in the instructions. Could be either in the express kit harness or the Televork harness. The wires themselves should be identified, I'll look after it warms up outside.
If I could just get that new solenoid installed, and the starter checked out, it would eliminate some of the guesswork. I need to get down there also with the meter and see what I've got while someone turns the key to start.

[RICH MUISE]

I finally figured out how to get the starter out, but it's gonna take 2 people and haven't found anyone to help yet. Nephews are never aroud when you need them, nor are my neighbors.. I did pull the Ford Motorcraft starter off my spare motor and brought it to the starter shop to have it rebuilt right. He's gonna have it for me in the morning. It's so much work getting at this thing, I don't want to put the parts store rebuilt starter back in.

[RICH MUISE]

My nephew came over and we fiddled with it for about an hour. Became obvious it was't going to work that way. Got back under it tonight and realized I could get to it right at the starter IF I had the right combination of sockets adapters and a short extension  that would be the same length as the starter body..no more no less. Found what I needed at Lowes, and finally got the last bolt/starter out. Yeah.
I also picked up my starter being rebuilt at the starter shop. They did put on the solenoid I had previously bought from them. Now, if these high winds don't blow us away tonight or wild fires burn us down, I'll get it put back together tomorrow and check it out...with my fingers crossed. The remote solenoid with suppression diodes also came in. Hopefully I won't need it, but it's here in case I do.
It does have a stamping on the backside that says "diode suppressed"

I finally remembered to adjust my ebrake cable, and to put a "rub guard" on a body mount bracket where a braided fuel line was rubbing.

[RICH MUISE]

Fire in the hole! I got the starter mounted,well, 2 of the 3 bolts...still need to get that pesky third one. But I hooked everything up and she fired right up. After I get undo the power and get that 3rd bolt tightened, I'll take it for long drive and see if the hot start issue is gone.
I did also wrap the exhaust with Titanium Heat guard wrap.

[57 imposter]

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