update on Rich's build

[djfordmanjack]

my bad. I thought you were using a rust converter.
how are you going to mechanically remove the phosphoric coating?

[RICH MUISE]

Probably most of it in the driprail can be removed with rotary  wire brushes. They'll be some hand brushing with toothbrush shaped wire brushes Anything accessible outside the gutter will be jitterbugged. There will be traces left in crevasses for sure, but I think I can remove enough so there will not be an adhesion problem. Believe me, I don't want to go thru this again, but IMHO it's still a better way to go than not treating it prior to epoxy prime. Additionally, btw, I will do this outside and flush it with water prior to coating removal to dilute anything left in crevasses.
Edit: Actually, upon rethinking, if the ZPhos. is kept wet and wiped off completely without it drying first(after it's done it's magic), there should be very minimal coating/residue left. At that point water and a Skotchbrite pad should get it off. That way there is no steel on steel posible imbedment as you would have if you used regular steel wool.

[mustang6984]

Sounds like YOUR "to-do" list is as involved as the boss' list! LOL!!!

[djfordmanjack]

getting it off while still wet sounds smart, Rich. Its the same way I do with vinegar or citric acid or related pastes. I am using a high pressure washer, where applicable. you can also think about carefully using a heat gun and/or compressed air for quicker drying. I am sure you will have no problem at all getting it down to bare metal with your skills. I was just thinking out loud, as I have the same work ahead on the Country Sedan. the drip rails were repaired just in the bad places by the PO, now I still have to clean and seal the surface rusted areas.

[RICH MUISE]

Actually, I misspoke again..lol......all this stuff is gradually coming back to me. With my experience with the product I use, there are actually two things left after the end of the process......the grey coating which is what tells you the process is complete, and a residue (yellow). It's the residue that can be wiped off while it's still wet, but the coating is a tough film that has to be removed mechanically...usually from sanding.

So, I'm still trying to decide which way to redo the driprails. After spending quite about 6 or 7 hours cleaning out about 4 feet of driprail, I was very impressed at how well the white seam sealer I put in there was adhering and how well it was staying tough and pliable, and no cracking. As I mentioned, I discovered my adhesion problem was with the primer under the seam sealer in some areas, not the seam sealer as I had thought.
We had that thread going about the panel bond as a substitute, that Pat gave such a good writeup about. As I was digging out that old seam sealer yesterday, I got to thinking about what I would be dealing with if I had used panel bond previously. Is that stuff removable by hand scrapping and pick tools? It's obviously good stuff, but is it TOO good? It's the old "what if's", but what if I use it now (I've already purchased it)and god forbid, I have the same problem a few years down the road.

Now that I know the problem was with the epoxy primer, and I know what I did wrong and how to fix it, I'm thinking I may just go back to the white seam sealer that I used initially. I'm thinking it's one of those if it aint broke, don't fix it things. It's gonna depend on what I find out about how hard it is to remove the panel bond should the need arise.

[Ecode70D]

We had that thread going about the panel bond as a substitute, that Pat gave such a good writeup about. As I was digging out that old seam sealer yesterday, I got to thinking about what I would be dealing with if I had used panel bond previously. Is that stuff removable by hand scrapping and pick tools? It's obviously good stuff, but is it TOO good? It's the old "what if's", but what if I use it now (I've already purchased it)and god forbid, I have the same problem a few years down the road.

Now that I know the problem was with the epoxy primer, and I know what I did wrong and how to fix it, I'm thinking I may just go back to the white seam sealer that I used initially. I'm thinking it's one of those if it aint broke, don't fix it things. It's gonna depend on what I find out about how hard it is to remove the panel bond should the need arise.

     Rich
     That's a good question..  How would someone remove the old panel bond stuff?  It's supposed to be tough stuff.  My guess would be heat but I really don't know..
      Jay

[mustang6984]

We had that thread going about the panel bond as a substitute, that Pat gave such a good writeup about. As I was digging out that old seam sealer yesterday, I got to thinking about what I would be dealing with if I had used panel bond previously. Is that stuff removable by hand scrapping and pick tools? It's obviously good stuff, but is it TOO good? It's the old "what if's", but what if I use it now (I've already purchased it)and god forbid, I have the same problem a few years down the road.

Now that I know the problem was with the epoxy primer, and I know what I did wrong and how to fix it, I'm thinking I may just go back to the white seam sealer that I used initially. I'm thinking it's one of those if it aint broke, don't fix it things. It's gonna depend on what I find out about how hard it is to remove the panel bond should the need arise.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

So...two ideas on the removal of the panel bonding glue.
#1) Wouldn't there be something on the package that says HOW to remove it should that be necessary?
#2) if there isn't, I would go to my favorite body shop and ask them how they do the deed.
Just a couple of thoughts on the subject FWIW. 

[gasman826]

just cut gutters off.  Problem solved.

[mustang6984]

just cut gutters off.  Problem solved.

LOL!!! You butcher you! 

[RICH MUISE]

Actually I did go ahead and use the panel bond. I went back and forth on this trying to figure out the best way to do this difficult area, and I decided the rust inhibitor qualities of the panel bond were worth any extra expense/work.
It's a pretty tough material after setting but at least the day after application, it sanded pretty easily, so removal if needed 20 years from now shouldn't be a problem. I would think wire brushing would be way to go for removal because of the limited access area, let me know in 20 years!
One tube was enough, but just barely. I had already decided the final shape was going to be from a coating of glaze/body filler. so I didn't purchase another 44. tube of the stuff and apply a second smoothing coat.The stuff applies pretty easily, can be pushed into cracks and crannies with your finger, but it does flash over pretty quickly, after which the stuff is hard to smooth without pulling/moving the stuff out of areas just pushed into. Result is, for me, not near as smooth and well shaped as I would have liked at application, but since we're using an adhesive product here, I sure can't complain.

Two things I always missed about the older cars our daily drivers do not have..rain gutters and wing windows. Even though removal of rain gutters is a common procedure on kustom cars, leadsleds, etc. they will remain on my car.

[RICH MUISE]

JFYI........I did change up one thing on what Pat recommended. After spending hours and hours thoroughly cleaning out the drip rails using all kinds of tools, and had it as clean as I possibly could, I wasn't 100% sure I got enough into the cracks and crevasses that CAN"T BE REACHED COMPLETELY. So, I went ahead and did the Zinc Chromate treatment to neutralize any rust in those areas. Those were areas I could see a light surface coat of rust, but couldn't reach. When I initially did the car, I sandblasted the driprails. That was not an option I wanted to consider now. The next morning I spent 3 or 4 hours removing the coating the phosphate left behind. Once again, still not 100%. The first time I painted the car, I left that coating in the driprails intentionally, this time I got as much out as posible, but given the fact, that's why I'm repainting my roof (epoxy primer not sticking to the zinc phosphate coating), I decided to change up what Pat recommended.

My reasoning:...Firstly, I sure didn't want to have the same problem again with adhesion or not enough epoxy primer in non accessible areas, and I knew there would be no adhesion problem with the panel bond, it has rust inhibitors, it could be forced into all the nooks and crannies that even spraying primers wouldn't reach (blowback, etc). With that in mind, I applied the panel bond to the bare metal driprails and sprayed with Epoxy primer AFTER I did a rough smoothing of the Panel Bond. That's where I'm at now. I let the epoxy cure for a couple of days (I went to Dallas, wasn't home anyways, lol).
Today I'll sand the epoxy a bit and start applying glaze filler in short sections at a time to get the final shape. When that's done I'll shoot the roof with a coat of high build, blocksand, and paint.

[Ecode70D]

JFYI......Today I'll sand the epoxy a bit and start applying glaze filler in short sections at a time to get the final shape. When that's done I'll shoot the roof with a coat of high build, blocksand, and paint.

     I don't know much about this bonding process, but I spoke to a friend who owns a big body shop and he told me that he applies Sem 30492 over the bonding agent before putting filler on it because the bond will swell up. 

    Hopefully the guys that know more about it will chime in and advise you better than I can.

[RICH MUISE]

Good info, Jay. The swelling may be a problem inherit with the Sem's? And their plastic bond when their repairing plastic stuff? Not necessarily a problem with the 3M panel bond. I'm not applying filler over the panel bond though, as I've got the epoxy primer on top, before the filler goes on. I'm working that right now in small sections at a time so I can form the filler as good as possible before it starts to set up. Thankfully with the cooler temps, I have more time to work it.
I did come up with a very good sanding block for it this morning. It's stiff but flexible, has rounded edges, and the thickness is adjustable. I took 4 yellow plastic Bondo spreaders and stacked them so the thicker ends with the radiused edge is outside on the bottom. The inner two are thin end at the bottom. I taped the 4 together near but not at the top with masking tape, then used a self stick sandpaper at the working end to hold it together. An inner spreader can be pulled up an inch or so if needed at the back of the driprail where it gats very narrow. I did end up tapind the sandpaper as well because the adhesive wasn't sticking well enough to the plastic.

[RICH MUISE]

update.....told ya I was slowing down, lol. The top got in surface primer a week ago. Weather was suppose to be in the 60's today and tommorrow, so yesterday I blocked it out and got it cleaned up and ready to mask for final paint. After a cleaning and scuffing and more cleaning, I started to spray the basecoat this afternoon. Not good. I have a dedicated 1/2 air filter and hose setup I use just for my paint spraying. Apparently the bad compressor pump I had replaced last year had gotten oil and crap in the filter and lines. I didn't notice anything when I sprayed the primers last week, but my tack coat was getting all kinds of fisheyes, so I stopped. I know it wasn't the surface that was contaminated as I was very careful to use wax and grease remover as well as water based cleaners before I started anything, and several times in between. Long story short, I went down and picked up a new filter system, and a new 1/2 rubber air hose and replaced the inline filter at the gun as well. I even ran some solvents thru the air intake on the spray gun. I'll let the flash coat sit overnight, and block it with 600 in the A.M. and try once more with the new filter and hose setup. I also picked up some tinted acrylic sealer  that I had used on the car the first time I painted it, so that'll be my first coat tommorrow hopefully sealing off any contaminants that were in what I sprayed today.

[RICH MUISE]

Wanted to share this with you guys since I had such a long and drawn out build thread here for years.
Got this yesterday at a small show in Lubbock. 150ish cars I would guess as mine was #132. Kinda different category, but the more I thought about it the more I liked it and appreciated it!