REALLY REALLY bad day today.

[Thor]

Rich,
      Looks like a 1993 engine with 72k is for sale in Dallas. (Image Below)
   
http://www.rebuiltautoengines.com/lincoln-mark_viii-used_engines.html


Are you sure a 96 won't work? I don't think Lincoln made the configuration change until 1996. Found this too.

https://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/ptd/d/fort-worth-lincoln-mark-viii-4d-all/6835031640.html

[RICH MUISE]

Thanks Thor. I guess they are out there. I'd want a salvage yard to email me a pic especially with the vin code......in the link to the rebuilt engines they list the Mark VIII, continental, and Town Cars amoung with others, as applications. Heh? the Mark is rear wheel dohc, the continental is front wheel dohc, and the Town Car is sohc rear wheel drive.

A 96 would work, but 95 was the last year for obd I. I'd much prefer a 96 because it is obd 2, and one year before they got into the anti theft system (PATS) but, I would need to replace my $1000. engine harness that I have now.

[CobraJoe]

....Joe....the torque on the camshaft caps is 8-12 n-m   (metric?) 71-106 lb-in
I don't have an inch lbs torque wrench.

Rich, sounds about right, 100 Inch-pounds = 8.3333 Foot-pounds

[RICH MUISE]

This is where I'm at now. Need opinions as to whether or not I'm headed in the right direction. I'm looking for reasons/damage that would prevent it from starting. If posible, I would like to get it running before I give up on it. I pulled the right bank valve cover. The timing chains are still intact and look good (?). I pulled one of the cam multi cap pieces and found very little galling. One of the 3 caps has one spot, about 1/32 wide that I can see, but can't feel with my fingernail. I'll try to post pics of it.

Feedback I've got so far:
sticking valves could cause the low compression
the timing chain tensioner is controlled by oil pressure
it could have jumped timing when the camshafts started binding up.

So, if my thinking is correct, which probably is not the case, it could have jumped timing when the camshafts got tight the same time the tensioners had no pressure to keep the tension on. If it jumped timing that could be the reason for both the low compression and the no start.....?? Is that posible to happen with no actual damage to valves?
If my thinking is on the right tract, I'll continue pulling caps, then do the same on the left bank, then find out how to check/set the timing chains. Opinions?

[RICH MUISE]

pics

[RICH MUISE]

more...........opinions?

[RICH MUISE]

Just read something in the Mark VIII shop manual:
".....since it is not a free wheeling engine, if the engine has jumped time, there WILL be valve and piston damage............"
I was hoping there was a chance of being off timing with no damage, doesn't sound like it.

[Tom S]

Just read something in the Mark VIII shop manual:
".....since it is not a free wheeling engine, if the engine has jumped time, there WILL be valve and piston damage............"
I was hoping there was a chance of being off timing with no damage, doesn't sound like it.

You don't yet know if it's jumped time.  But the compression readings don't look very good. May be better with a fully warmed up engine.
I know that if it was me I'd be looking for a new used low mile engine that sounds good & grab it ASAP. Just like Jay I know nothing of these new engines but the low mile ones you want ain't gonna be around forever.
Don't you think that a possible rebuild of your engine would cost a lot more than a new used one? Some of the prices posted here for those used engines looked very reasonable, even cheap in some cases.
If you do get yours running ok anyway you would/could have a spare.
I like having spares on hand.
You can always sell it. (To Jay!)   

[junior58]

Hi Rich, been off forum for a bit so have only just come across this. Sorry to hear the bad news and sorry that I am not going to make it any better. I?m an ex Ford mechanic and do have experience of mod motors.
The first bit of bad news is your low compression. Ideally you should be seeing around 130 to 150 psi so 50 - 60 is way down. In a perfect world a compression test is done on a warm engine but even on a cold engine you would still get much higher than what you are seeing. The reason for doing it at wide open throttle is to allow maximum air into the cylinders while cranking (nothing to do with disabling injectors as you do the same procedure on carb engines).
Your engine does look very clean inside so that is mildly encouraging, the last one of these I had apart that had oiling issues was full of aluminium swarf, but you are at the stage where you are going to have to start pulling stuff apart to see what the damage is. First place to start would be the timing cover so you can check cam timing. If that is out you can almost garauntee it has bent some valves, resulting in your compression loss. From there, it will be heads off and see if there is any other damage.
If deciding to go for a replacement engine, I wouldn?t get too hung up on the OBD1 vs OBD2 part of it, that just comes down to computers and maybe a sensor or two, the basic architecture of the engine is the same. You would just strip all the wiring and ancillary equipment off the donor engine and use your existing stuff. If you are having to pay someone to do the work, often the cost of the strip and inspection can outweigh the cost of just chucking in another engine, especially if the strip and inspection finds serious terminal damage that would result in you having to replace it any way.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but unfortunately I don?t think there is a quick fix. If there is anything else I can help with please let me know.

[CobraJoe]

Feedback I've got so far:

the timing chain is controlled by oil pressure
it could have jumped timing when the camshafts started binding up.

So, if my thinking is correct, which probably is not the case, it could have jumped timing when the camshafts got tight the same time the tensioners had no pressure to keep the tension on. If it jumped timing that could be the reason for both the low compression and the no start.....?? Is that posible to happen with no actual damage to valves?
If my thinking is on the right tract, I'll continue pulling caps, then do the same on the left bank, then find out how to check/set the timing chains. Opinions?

Rich first off, the timing chain is not controlled by oil pressure, it is run off the crankshaft sprocket.
Oil  pressure controls the variable camshaft timing, your position is set when the camshaft is installed. As engine RPM change, the camshaft's rotation in relation to the crankshaft can change. This makes the camshaft's profile effective at a much greater RPM range, as the camshaft's timing can advance and retard as needed.
The variable camshaft timing is controlled by oil pressure in conjunction with oil control solenoids and camshaft phasers. So, basically, if low oil pressure where to happen, you simply would not advance or retard your timing.

The 4.6 overhead cams are kept tight by nylon guides, so if your were to run it out of oil, the guides could wear or break possibly causing your chain to possibly jump time, as the slack in the chain is controlled by hydraulic pressure (oil) on the tensioner.   However, they if a chain guide were to break, the chain tensioner can overextend and rotate, changing the timing on that particular camshaft. Usually this will only cause a rough idle, a random misfire code and/or lean or rich codes.

If it were me, I would do like Junior recommended; pulling the engine and tearing it down. Even if it did run, I wouldn't feel comfortable using the oil pump and pick up and not giving the engine a thorough cleaning.

[RICH MUISE]

Wow, lots of info to digest. thanks guys.
Quote Tom: "You don't yet know if it's jumped time.  But the compression readings don't look very good. May be better with a fully warmed up engine.
"I know that if it was me I'd be looking for a new used low mile engine that sounds good & grab it ASAP. Just like Jay I know nothing of these new engines but the low mile ones you want ain't gonna be around forever.
Don't you think that a possible rebuild of your engine would cost a lot more than a new used one? Some of the prices posted here for those used engines looked very reasonable, even cheap in some cases.
If you do get yours running ok anyway you would/could have a spare."
Tom........yep, you nailed it. Lots I don't know, including the possible jumped timing. I am at the point where I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking something. I do not want a high mileage engine, I've already got a high mileage spare at my old house. So many unknowns buying an already pulled engine........A running donor car, to me would be the safest way to go. I'm too old to do this swap thing too many times, so that is a major concern. Not 100% sure I can do it once more.

[RICH MUISE]

Joe:
quote " the timing chain is not controlled by oil pressure, it is run off the crankshaft sprocket."
Yes, I forgot one word in my post. I meant to say the timing chain tensioner was controlled by oil pressure.

"The 4.6 overhead cams are kept tight by nylon guides, so if your were to run it out of oil, the guides could wear or break possibly causing your chain to possibly jump time, as the slack in the chain is controlled by hydraulic pressure (oil) on the tensioner.   However, they if a chain guide were to break, the chain tensioner can overextend and rotate, changing the timing on that particular camshaft. Usually this will only cause a rough idle, a random misfire code and/or lean or rich codes."

This is the kind of thing I was hoping to find. The guides,tensioner, chains look good on the first bank.
If there is valve damage, would the compression readings be so even on all 4 cylinders I've checked so far?
Compared to the pics of the camshaft you posted, how does what I've found so far on mine look to you?

[hiball3985]

Just another thought, oil the cam journals and lobes good while you have it apart. The end of the rockers or what ever they call them on these engines goes on a lash adjuster that uses oil pressure I believe, similar to a hydraulic lifter and have to pump up. Did you crank the engine with the covers off to see if the valves are opening completely? If they aren't that could possibly be the reason for the low compression. And I'm sure someone with more knowledge of these engines will tell me I'm wrong 

[RICH MUISE]

Steve: Depending on what I could see up top, getting to the timing chains was my next destination. I need to pull my hood off so I can reach everything a bit easier. If I get that far, I'll have to research what to look for  to see if it has jumped timing. I do have the big Mark VIII shop manual.

Very interesting on your OBD 1 vs. OBD 2 comments. Are you saying I could use an engine originally setup for OBD 2 , keep my OBD 1 computer,ignition control module, only 2 oxygen sensors, etc etc. I'd want to keep the intake manifold I've got now so all my fuel lines, throttle cable, throttle position sensor, etc. works.
If that is indeed not a problem for a novice, but just a parts swap, it would open a few more doors for me.
The sixteen runner intake manifold that's on my '95 engine.......do you know if the '97-8 versions still had that setup where the engine only runs on 8 runners up until 3k rpm?
I had converted my coil pack/spark plug wires to a simulated cop setup, btw. My computer thinks it is still sending 4 signals to the coils, the harness I have splits those signals into 2 via wiring, rather than the coils doing it.

[FiveSevenLiter]

Sorry to hear of your pain.
I would be interested in seeing the cause, do you have any photos of the oil filter and gasket?
Terry