I think I probably lost the engine in my '57 today. Haven't crawled under to look, but apparently when I did the oil change yesterday, I overtightened the oil filter and lost the seal......then the oil. Took it out to go to the car wash, wasn't sure what had happened other than the car just started losing power, then died. As soon as the tow truck pulled up to my driveway, I knew what happened...........big trail of new Mobil one. Yep, I didn't do any of the things needed when you change oil...........I didn't check for leaks with the engine running, and I never looked at my Oil pressure gage.
Anyways, got to ask the gurus........any chance I didn't lose it completly? Or is that a nil posibility. I drove it about 4 miles before it seized. No loud noises at least that my almost deaf ears could hear. How do I go about checking? would pulling the plugs and soaking it with tranny fluid do any good. I can pull the valve covers and visually check and lubricate the cams......but am I wasting my time?
If I was still limber enough to kick myself in the butt I'd be doing it.
first thing I would do is cut the oil filter open and inspect for metal particles. If you find metal debris in it then you may be screwed, if it looks clean then try refilling with fresh oil and run it. Warm it up with the new oil then dump it out and refill with your Mobil 1. No loud noises is a good sign. I had a 390 years ago that lost a rod bearing and it made quite a bit of noise before it finally quit.
I'll do that, RMK, thanks, but I'm wondering if any potential metal particles would have made it to the filter since there was no oil to carry them there. I'm hoping after I put oil and a new filter in it, it'll crank over......but I'm also thinking....... I tried starting on the side of the road after it died, and it wouldn't, now that I know what was going on, the engine was obviously seized from excessive heat. I'm not sure if I should even see if it's still seized after cooling, or if I need to get lubrication to as much as possible (penetrating oil in cylinders, cams, etc) before even trying that. I'll wait for suggestions, opinions before I do anything.
Once you fill it with new oil try turning it over on the crank pulley with a breaker bar to see if it's locked up or not. Remove the plugs first and it wouldn't hurt to squirt penetrating oil down the cylinders.
Whats happened to me a couple times is when I remove the old filter the rubber gasket stays on the block. Then when you spin a new filter on you have two rubber gaskets that can get bunched up. I did that once and when I started the engine to check for leaks it was pouring out fresh oil.
I would remove the oil filter install a new one. Add oil and see if it turns over. If the engine didn't over heat you should be ok. Did the engine overheat?
Hey Eric, no it did not overheat. I just got back with a new filter and oil. I'll change the filter, add oil, and pull the plugs as RMK suggested. It'll take a while to do that....lots of stuff to remove to get to 7 of the plugs, and have to move the hydroboost over a little to get to the 8th. Good project for tommorrow.
Anybody know what they were mixing with ATF to make a good penetrating oil......for some reason I'm thinking acetone, but not sure. and how much do you put in, and how? My spark plug holes are about 6" deep.
ATF mixed with Acetone, is the poor mans penetrating oil.
I think your issue will be, did it seize up because the crank would not turn because the rods were starved for oil. Or did it stop running because the engine was hot and the pistons seized up in the cylinders? You need to turn it over by hand to diagnosis.
I would have a good oil pressure test gauge connected, when you get it fired back up. If it "sounds OK", and it has good oil pressure ( checked at both hot and cold, at idle and 2000 RPM), I would drive it and see what happens.
Many years ago, my wife lost a water pump seal while driving in our '64 Fairlane "K" code 271 HP car, with the radio and A/C turned on. It was summer time, in Phoenix, so you know how hot it can get. The engine got so hot, it seized up and stopped running. I replaced the water pump, pulled the heads, inspected the cylinders, checked the flatness of the heads, put it back together with a fresh valve job, and drove the car for thousands of miles without even one issue.
Sorry Rich, but S..t sometimes happens to all of us.
Rich, don`t you have a "Mod OHC" engine in your 57? My fingers are crossed for you, but I have found that most ''Modern'' engines, especially overhead cam versions, to be much less forgiving when adequate lubrication in present. Much tighter clearances, more elaborate oiling routing, steel camshafts riding directly on the aluminum head castings, etc, mean less tolerance for lack of oil than older '' old tech'' engines with lots of miles on them. Hopefully you get lucky, but if not, all the tricks for freeing up a stuck engine seldom for a good, long term outcome. If the cams and crank are galled to the bearing surfaces, thats a major issue.
Yes, dohc 4.6, and you are correct, the 4 cams ride directly in the aluminum heads. I was really surprised when I first heard that, as these engines are generally capable of very high mileage. 300k plus is not unusual.
Too bad Rich, sorry ! first thing that comes to my mind is, can you prime the oil passages on the 4.6 ?
the engine just stalling from excessive heat and friction doesn't mean it's scrap. remember when you want to break in a fresh engine and the starter won't even turn because of friction on fresh bores. had that happening before.
I would think the the crank bearings could get damaged.
like others said, if you can get it oiled and running you would have to cut open and inspect another fresh oil filter after a short time, like 10 minutes run time. if there really was damage to rotating surfaces they should get spilled out to the filter, unless the oil passages are totall blocked by bearing metal by now. which hopefully they are not.
Marvel Mystery oil is still good stuff to put on top of pistons. I really don't think the pistons are seized though. leave the spark plugs out on first crank to let excessive penetrating fluid splatter from plug holes in case. you don't want a hydro lock.
Good luck. Rich ! fingers crossed !
No luck at all so far. I changed the filter, filled the oil, pulled the plugs. I moved the crankshaft pulley a little, but spent 1/2 hour trying to get the long breaker bar to engage the nut so I could turn it further with no luck. everything was in the way of the long bar. I could get my shorter breaker bar on it, but I wasn't strong enough to move it. I said screw it, put a chaulk mark on the crankshaft pulley, and hit the starter real briefly. That showed me the crank was in fact turning. So I thought good, the crank is not frozen. I put the plugs and coils back in, hooked everything up, and tried to start it. Sounded very tight. I only hit the starter 3 or 4 times for maybe 4 or 5 seconds a shot. The last time I tried, it backfired.
Rebuilding these things are very expensive, and I'm guessing this engine is going to need it, so not sure what I'm going to do at this point. I always felt lucky I had found this lo miles one, doubt it's gonna happen again at an reasonable price.
Sorry to hear of your bad news Rich. I know you have to be sick over that motor. I've been amazed at where you've been driving that car since you got it running. Glad to see you getting so much use out of it. Good luck on finding a replacement for it or having it repaired.
If I see a low mile replacement in this area I'll let you know.
thanks.......93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII. I'd prefer a 96 because it's an OBD 2 system, but that's only something I could consider if everything else being perfect.......low miles, low price, etc. If I go 96, it'll probably would be another 1k for a wiring change.
Rich, I would not overdo all of those bad thoughts right now. you just cranked it a few times. there is no way that oil has already got to the bearings. you need to think out how to prelube all the friction surfaces.
is there a way to inspect the heads in car ? can you slacken the cam drive so you can wiggle the cams by hand, are they accessible? Although I have no clue about these modern engines. take your time in saving the engine! good luck !
YIKES!!!! What sad news to start the day. I don't know about these new engines but I would crank it with the plugs removed and see if you build any oil pressure. It will probably take some good cranking to fill the filter and all the oil galleries before the oil reaches the bearings.
I'll ask a dumb question since I don't know but don't these computer controlled engines have some safety thing built in that when the oil pressure drops it would shut down the engine?
Thanks guys, right now I'm so depressed it's hard to think straight about it. No matter what direction this ends up taking, I'm also sure at minimum I've lost the entire summer, and with my age/health etc, I had been thinking that this had a good chance of being my last one. Long roadtrips are getting increasingly hard on me.
My local speed shop friend who is somewhat knowledgeable about these engines, said he thought it was likely I would have enough damage done to require a rebuild. He also though it was more likely damage would be in the crankshaft/rod bearings rather than the top end. Having this one rebuilt is probably out of financial consideration at this time, but I need to do more research on that.
No way, I was told, for any engine without a distributor to get access to the oil pump, although late night I did find an article about using a garden type pressure pump rigged with fittings to hook up at the oil pressure sending port. My thought yesterday was cranking the starter a little (with spark plugs out) would activate the oil pump and get some lubrication going. After doing that, I reinstalled the plugs, etc and tried starting it. I immediately stopped when it backfired, as I'm assuming that was telling me there is a timing issue, which I'm also assuming is indicating timing chain problems/damage. I just don't know. I haven't totally given up on this engine yet.
Gunther, removing the valve covers on these exposes all 4 cams and the top end of the timing chains, but you can't loosen up the chains without removing the timing chain covers.
Jim.....not sure what the computer is capable of doing. Only thing I know for sure at this point is that the computer will sense that the engine is not running and will shut off the fuel pump. When the car started dying on the freeway, I was just able to coast normally over to the side of the road. Stepping on the gas had no response whatsoever. I've never had it happen, but in a non computerized car, if an engine seized while the car was still in drive, wouldn't it have a big drag on the car speed?, With that in mind, I figured there was a chance the computer sensed the no oil pressure and shut it down. That's why I cleared the computer, which was a big mistake, because I should have read the stored codes before I did that.
Rich I understand the age and health issues at our age, when I swapped Y blocks a couple of years ago it almost killed me. I've never had an engine freeze while driving so I don't know but I'm sure it would slow down. Back in the 70's my wife over heated a 390, cooling problem but it had oil, it made it in the driveway but before I could get the hood open it seized, let it cool over night and it started up and ran with no problem.
I would give using the external pump idea a try, not much to lose if it doesn't work..
One of the Hamb guys suggested the backfiring could be from dry valve stems hanging up, not necessarilyfrom timing issues as I was thinking.
LOL, another Hamb guy said he'd be greiving for a week before he could even think about working on it. I laughed, it was nice to have guys understand, unlike my wife who yesterday basically said, yeah, you found out your life got screwed up an hour ago, what's the matter now?
Grieving for a few days may be a good suggestion, I couldn't do it and sleep at night.
what I wood do is pull the plugs give 1 pump of atf. in each cylinder and make sheer the battery is up or on a charger and hit the key until your oil gauge has presser if that works ok put plugs back and start it remember if it starts it will smoke a lot until the atf. is out
Rich
I am grieving with you. You put a lot of time into getting your car set up just the way you wanted , and have been driving all over the place with it. This is a real bummer. Hopefully you will get everything straightened out and will be able to put all of this behind you in time for some summer driving.
If the engine has to be replaced, I hope that you will get a replacement that does not require
changing the wiring system.
Unfortunately I put on the blinders when they started to put computers and confusing stuff into the vehicles, so I'm not much help.
Jay
My sympathies. I can see wanting to do upgrades like OBDII. BUT, upgrades take time and money. Wrecking yards should be able to provide you a low mileage (100-120k), guaranteed 4.6 for $300-500. If you can't hear it run, you should be able to inspect the donor and get the VIN. Easiest, cheapest and fastest way to get back on the road.
Rich I'm in the same boat as you, well maybe not, but the same lake! The 351C in the Ranchero has not run since before Labor day weekend. Medical issues and the thought of all the possibilities just overwhelmed me until a friend came over and found the bad valve seat. Got the seat fixed but life has prevented trying to run the stupid thing...
The daunting task ahead can be very overwhelming and the ultimate feeling of failure adds to the level of loss. Put the thing aside for a few days, ponder your belly button (or your wifes), then go out and look, think, and crank again with the plugs out. Won't hurt it any worse to crank it long and hard until oil pressure comes up (or not) then try the start again if the oil comes up.
If it won't run keep on trying, (remember you dumped the computer so it has to re-learn how to run the engine), they don't like being taken off the battery (the keep alive) and certainly don't like being dumped. If it won't behave then sit back and try to figure which way to go. Gary is correct with the junk yard idea. You can swap all the "stuff" off your current engine to the "new" long block and the computer is smart enough to learn the new cams and you should be back in business.
Yes, lots of them available for not too much money.......but a ton of work, wouldn't go that route without being able to hear it run. I've got a 160k mile motor I pulled out of the first donor Mark VIII I never used.
A little progress.....I think. My motor went from cranking real tight to a normal spin, so that's good, along with the fact there are no strange noises when it is spinning. Would not start though. Posibly flooded though.
My neighbor came over while I was trying to start it...he's worked on stuff all his life, and said it didn't sound to him like the engine had compression. So that's next..........I'll be going out shortly to run a compression test on it, and see where that leads. No compression could mean a broken timing chain or valve problems...........either would get it into a rebuild mode because if a timing chain broke something caused it to break. My neighbor thought if it was valves stuck, we'd hear it. I've said so many times, I'm not a mechanic. Sure wish I knew more about this stuff.
Rich in your own words you stated that fuel pump is run from computer, who knows what else. backfiring can also be had on lean mixture, ie no fuel pressure. I don't know these motors, but I surely wouldn't give up, nor resign. up to this point you have no way of knowing if the motor is a total loss, or you have just small mechanical problems, or - only computer trouble. you know how these things won't run even with the smallest sensor or digital info missing. who knows what the computer is at after the oil loss and reset. Now that the engine turns over easily, you need to find out, what else could be wrong. step by step. No need to throw the towel. we have all been through this or similar situations. almost ready to give up. But we don't do that. we are getting things fixed ! You can do that ! G.
Rich just keep feeding updates with as precise as possible info....one of us might have the "fix" or been there and recognize the problem. Hang in there guy!
Hopefully the oil pump is still functional.
Hey Bill, I was hoping you'd see this thread as you're one of the few here that have exper. with the mod motors that I'm aware of.
I think the compression test I just did is verifying I have major problems. Never have done a compression test before, borrowed a Mac's Tools tester from my friend.
I disabled the fuel pump, pulled the 4 coils and plugs from one bank. Exactly 50 lbs. in all 4. According to a you tube video, the test should be done with throttle all the way to the floor. That's what I did, even though I believe the reason for that is that it disables the injectors, which didn't matter since I disabled the fuel pump. I cranked it for about 8-10 seconds per cylinder. Even had my wife crank it once to make sure the gage was holding at the high point, and it was.
RMK.....I believe the oil pump is fine as the engine really started loosening up after the initial cranking. All of my gauges go to zero when the ignition switch is all the way to start, but the oil pressure gauge would jump to about 60 lbs. or so immediatly after turning the key off, before gong back to zero.
That sounds encouraging. Keep us posted and I hope it all works out.
Not sure if you saw my previous post about only having 50#compression in the one bank I checked. didn't sound encouraging to me unless I'm missing something.
Going out of town for a day..........I'll check back Saturday......need a roadtrip.
Sorry, Rich. This is a real bummer. Wonder if compression would come up when warm should you get it to start. Pretty sure that compression tests are to be done with a fully warmed up engine.
Sorry to hear Rich, that really sucks.
Not to be the bearer of bad news, but I think even if you do get it to run, you'll probably won't get enough oil fed to the cams. As said before, steel cams riding on a machined aluminum surface that doesn't have bearings. I've done tons of cam phasers on 5.4 3 valve mod motors and have seen the heads pretty well scored just from guys not changing their oil regularly which causes them to bleed off oil pressure.
Here is a picture of a cam from one I did for a guy who changed his oil every 5000 miles. I thought I had a pic of the head, but I can't find it. This motor ended up being junk.
(https://i.imgur.com/QP1jLGn.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Avw2G7s.jpg)
Rich, I have been busy of late and haven't logged in for a couple of days. I would walk away for a while, I have always felt like whatever the problem is it diminishes in scale with a little separation. You have my sympathy.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-03-07 17:22
Hey Bill, I was hoping you'd see this thread as you're one of the few here that have exper. with the mod motors that I'm aware of.
I think the compression test I just did is verifying I have major problems. Never have done a compression test before, borrowed a Mac's Tools tester from my friend.
I disabled the fuel pump, pulled the 4 coils and plugs from one bank. Exactly 50 lbs. in all 4. According to a you tube video, the test should be done with throttle all the way to the floor. That's what I did, even though I believe the reason for that is that it disables the injectors, which didn't matter since I disabled the fuel pump. I cranked it for about 8-10 seconds per cylinder. Even had my wife crank it once to make sure the gage was holding at the high point, and it was.
That is partially good news. It says the valves are opening and closing. Squirt some oil in each cylinder and re-check the compression. The oil will help seal the rings to the cylinder walls and should raise the psi in each cylinder. The bad cylinder in my 351C did not respond to the oil, it stayed at no compression. Ideally compression should be checked hot but cold checks can give hints to a problem as well.
Got back from the Goodguys show late last night. Yesterday the show was about 1/2 what is normally there. I'm sure it was because of the rain forcasted for the weekend. The swap meet area was less than 1/2 normal as well, one of the reasons I went.hoping one of those guys with a trailer full of engines would be there. nope.
I'll add oil to the cylinders and do another test today. I'm also going to pull a valve cover for a look. May pull the caps of one of the cams to see if the bearing surfaces are scored like the pic Joe posted.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-03-09 09:13
.... I'm also going to pull a valve cover for a look. May pull the caps of one of the cams to see if the bearing surfaces are scored like the pic Joe posted.
Rich, take a good look at the caps themselves, that is where you should see the heavy scoring. Remember, pull the caps one at a time so you don't loose the cam or any of the followers. Don't quote me on it, but if I remember, the torque spec is 7.5-8 foot lbs.
Good luck.
found this hardcopy of a pic I took when I changed the valve covers to the COPs while I was installing the engine. Had to scan it, so not sure of quality. Clean as a whistle at 52k miles", the pic was just as it was when I pulled the old cover, no cleaning whatsoever.
Rich
I'm still here as a silent observer. Like I stated previously, I don't know much about that modern stuff, and have no idea how you got it all hooked up and running in the first place.
It just ain't right that you of all people are in a jam like this .
I have faith and wish you the best, that you can somehow easily save the engine, get the computer working again and can be back happily driving again.
Jay
Rich,
I just got on the form after a month. WOW... I'm so sorry to hear about your engine. It really broke my heart to hear what happened with all the work you've done. Hopefully you won't have much damage at all...but I'm not holding my breath. Back in 1983 (when I was a young aircraft mechanic) I had to inspect a Cessna 150 engine that was ran without oil for less than 1-2 minutes. (Our flight line service guy forgot to add oil in after an oil change...no oil pressure at startup...shut down fairly quickly...at least that was his story.) It completely trashed all the rod and main bearings.
You didn't say... did you cut open the oil filter? See any metal? I would start buy putting on a cheep oil filter, adding oil and starting the car for a minute or so and removing the filter / cutting it open. If you cut it open and see much metal at all I bet your rod/main bearings are trashed for sure. If you need me too, I can look around here for another engine and see if I can find a low mile 93 - 95 Lincoln engine. Best of luck Rich!
I did not cut apart the oil filter, mainly because I figured by the time damage starting being done, there wasn't any oil to carry the particles to the filter. I figured I'd cut apart the one I put back on after running the engine for a short while........I guess I was being over optimistic with that thinking, lol.
OK, just did a wet compression test. I went down and got a pump oil can, some rubber tubing, and a bottle of Marvel Mystery Oil. LOL.......right next to it on the shelf at O'Reilly's was a can of "engine fix all". Wouldn't that be nice.
Couldn't find the cylinder numbering chart, so right bank front to back:
1 went from 50 dry to 73 wet
2 went from 50 to 62
3 went from 50 to 65
4 went from 50 to 65
Joe....the torque on the camshaft caps is 8-12 n-m (metric?) 71-106 lb-in
I don't have an inch lbs torque wrench.
Rich,
If push comes to shove....This might work.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Lincoln-4-6-MKVIII-DOHC-engine-complete-engine-never-run-Kit-Car-Hot-Rod/273736520365?hash=item3fbbf7d2ad:g:j~EAAOSwxLFcUhGP
Rich, what year model is your set up, I found a 2009 Mercury LS today with 80k miles this morning. It had some front and rear damage but was minimal and in driving condition . The lady just messaged me it sold. She was asking 2000.00 complete car. Ill keep looking for a descent deal but not sure what years fall into the criteria you need. Hopefully you can save yours but until the verdict is in I'll keep looking.
It has to be 93-95 or I'll end up redoing the wiring harness @ a thousand bucks!. Only the Mark VIIIs and Mercury Marauders had the dohc for that vintage in rear wheel drive. Other 4.6's were sohc or front wheel drive.
60-70k max miles on a donor car is what I'd be looking for, preferably less. Monday I'll check with Jasper engines on a rebuild.
Thor, I've been in contact with that Ebay seller. I have several unknowns/concerns about it. First, it is a prototype pre-production engine. Not sure if that means there might be differences from a production engine that might cause some major headaches because you'd always be dealing with an unknown. Also where did the engine come from? He says his customer he's selling it for bought it to install in a '56 Ford then changed his mind. This guy is an ebay seller, not somebody I or we know, so a definite buyer beware situation. A friend here told me the big manufacturers frequently donated engines to trade schools, so there is a big chance this engine was in a school shop being assembled/disassembled many many times over the course of a few decades. Would still fall under that "never run new engine description.
A few years ago Rich Kuberski was offered a '95 4.6 Mark VIII never run test engine. Whole different ballgame there. Rich knew the guy that owned the company that had it and why. No surprises there. He's sure the engine is gone now, but he's going to check into it for me.
Rich,
Looks like a 1993 engine with 72k is for sale in Dallas. (Image Below)
http://www.rebuiltautoengines.com/lincoln-mark_viii-used_engines.html
Are you sure a 96 won't work? I don't think Lincoln made the configuration change until 1996. Found this too.
https://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/ptd/d/fort-worth-lincoln-mark-viii-4d-all/6835031640.html
Thanks Thor. I guess they are out there. I'd want a salvage yard to email me a pic especially with the vin code......in the link to the rebuilt engines they list the Mark VIII, continental, and Town Cars amoung with others, as applications. Heh? the Mark is rear wheel dohc, the continental is front wheel dohc, and the Town Car is sohc rear wheel drive.
A 96 would work, but 95 was the last year for obd I. I'd much prefer a 96 because it is obd 2, and one year before they got into the anti theft system (PATS) but, I would need to replace my $1000. engine harness that I have now.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-03-09 13:46
....Joe....the torque on the camshaft caps is 8-12 n-m (metric?) 71-106 lb-in
I don't have an inch lbs torque wrench.
Rich, sounds about right, 100 Inch-pounds = 8.3333 Foot-pounds
This is where I'm at now. Need opinions as to whether or not I'm headed in the right direction. I'm looking for reasons/damage that would prevent it from starting. If posible, I would like to get it running before I give up on it. I pulled the right bank valve cover. The timing chains are still intact and look good (?). I pulled one of the cam multi cap pieces and found very little galling. One of the 3 caps has one spot, about 1/32 wide that I can see, but can't feel with my fingernail. I'll try to post pics of it.
Feedback I've got so far:
sticking valves could cause the low compression
the timing chain tensioner is controlled by oil pressure
it could have jumped timing when the camshafts started binding up.
So, if my thinking is correct, which probably is not the case, it could have jumped timing when the camshafts got tight the same time the tensioners had no pressure to keep the tension on. If it jumped timing that could be the reason for both the low compression and the no start.....?? Is that posible to happen with no actual damage to valves?
If my thinking is on the right tract, I'll continue pulling caps, then do the same on the left bank, then find out how to check/set the timing chains. Opinions?
pics
more...........opinions?
Just read something in the Mark VIII shop manual:
".....since it is not a free wheeling engine, if the engine has jumped time, there WILL be valve and piston damage............"
I was hoping there was a chance of being off timing with no damage, doesn't sound like it.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-03-09 21:40
Just read something in the Mark VIII shop manual:
".....since it is not a free wheeling engine, if the engine has jumped time, there WILL be valve and piston damage............"
I was hoping there was a chance of being off timing with no damage, doesn't sound like it.
:(
You don't yet know if it's jumped time. But the compression readings don't look very good. May be better with a fully warmed up engine. (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/smilies/Doanno.gif)
I know that if it was me I'd be looking for a new used low mile engine that sounds good & grab it ASAP. Just like Jay I know nothing of these new engines but the low mile ones you want ain't gonna be around forever.
Don't you think that a possible rebuild of your engine would cost a lot more than a new used one? Some of the prices posted here for those used engines looked very reasonable, even cheap in some cases.
If you do get yours running ok anyway you would/could have a spare.
I like having spares on hand. :)
You can always sell it. (To Jay!) (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/smilies/hide.gif) :002:
Hi Rich, been off forum for a bit so have only just come across this. Sorry to hear the bad news and sorry that I am not going to make it any better. I?m an ex Ford mechanic and do have experience of mod motors.
The first bit of bad news is your low compression. Ideally you should be seeing around 130 to 150 psi so 50 - 60 is way down. In a perfect world a compression test is done on a warm engine but even on a cold engine you would still get much higher than what you are seeing. The reason for doing it at wide open throttle is to allow maximum air into the cylinders while cranking (nothing to do with disabling injectors as you do the same procedure on carb engines).
Your engine does look very clean inside so that is mildly encouraging, the last one of these I had apart that had oiling issues was full of aluminium swarf, but you are at the stage where you are going to have to start pulling stuff apart to see what the damage is. First place to start would be the timing cover so you can check cam timing. If that is out you can almost garauntee it has bent some valves, resulting in your compression loss. From there, it will be heads off and see if there is any other damage.
If deciding to go for a replacement engine, I wouldn?t get too hung up on the OBD1 vs OBD2 part of it, that just comes down to computers and maybe a sensor or two, the basic architecture of the engine is the same. You would just strip all the wiring and ancillary equipment off the donor engine and use your existing stuff. If you are having to pay someone to do the work, often the cost of the strip and inspection can outweigh the cost of just chucking in another engine, especially if the strip and inspection finds serious terminal damage that would result in you having to replace it any way.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but unfortunately I don?t think there is a quick fix. If there is anything else I can help with please let me know.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-03-09 18:56
Feedback I've got so far:
the timing chain is controlled by oil pressure
it could have jumped timing when the camshafts started binding up.
So, if my thinking is correct, which probably is not the case, it could have jumped timing when the camshafts got tight the same time the tensioners had no pressure to keep the tension on. If it jumped timing that could be the reason for both the low compression and the no start.....?? Is that posible to happen with no actual damage to valves?
If my thinking is on the right tract, I'll continue pulling caps, then do the same on the left bank, then find out how to check/set the timing chains. Opinions?
Rich first off, the timing chain is not controlled by oil pressure, it is run off the crankshaft sprocket.
Oil pressure controls the
variable camshaft timing, your position is set when the camshaft is installed. As engine RPM change, the camshaft's rotation in relation to the crankshaft can change. This makes the camshaft's profile effective at a much greater RPM range, as the camshaft's timing can advance and retard as needed.
The variable camshaft timing is controlled by oil pressure in conjunction with oil control solenoids and camshaft phasers. So, basically, if low oil pressure where to happen, you simply would not advance or retard your timing.
The 4.6 overhead cams are kept tight by nylon guides, so if your were to run it out of oil, the guides could wear or break possibly causing your chain to
possibly jump time, as the
slack in the chain is controlled by hydraulic pressure (oil) on the tensioner. However, they if a chain guide were to break, the chain tensioner can overextend and rotate, changing the timing on that particular camshaft. Usually this will only cause a rough idle, a random misfire code and/or lean or rich codes.
If it were me, I would do like Junior recommended; pulling the engine and tearing it down. Even if it did run, I wouldn't feel comfortable using the oil pump and pick up and not giving the engine a thorough cleaning.
Wow, lots of info to digest. thanks guys.
Quote Tom: "You don't yet know if it's jumped time. But the compression readings don't look very good. May be better with a fully warmed up engine.
"I know that if it was me I'd be looking for a new used low mile engine that sounds good & grab it ASAP. Just like Jay I know nothing of these new engines but the low mile ones you want ain't gonna be around forever.
Don't you think that a possible rebuild of your engine would cost a lot more than a new used one? Some of the prices posted here for those used engines looked very reasonable, even cheap in some cases.
If you do get yours running ok anyway you would/could have a spare."
Tom........yep, you nailed it. Lots I don't know, including the possible jumped timing. I am at the point where I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking something. I do not want a high mileage engine, I've already got a high mileage spare at my old house. So many unknowns buying an already pulled engine........A running donor car, to me would be the safest way to go. I'm too old to do this swap thing too many times, so that is a major concern. Not 100% sure I can do it once more.
Joe:
quote " the timing chain is not controlled by oil pressure, it is run off the crankshaft sprocket."
Yes, I forgot one word in my post. I meant to say the timing chain tensioner was controlled by oil pressure.
"The 4.6 overhead cams are kept tight by nylon guides, so if your were to run it out of oil, the guides could wear or break possibly causing your chain to possibly jump time, as the slack in the chain is controlled by hydraulic pressure (oil) on the tensioner. However, they if a chain guide were to break, the chain tensioner can overextend and rotate, changing the timing on that particular camshaft. Usually this will only cause a rough idle, a random misfire code and/or lean or rich codes."
This is the kind of thing I was hoping to find. The guides,tensioner, chains look good on the first bank.
If there is valve damage, would the compression readings be so even on all 4 cylinders I've checked so far?
Compared to the pics of the camshaft you posted, how does what I've found so far on mine look to you?
Just another thought, oil the cam journals and lobes good while you have it apart. The end of the rockers or what ever they call them on these engines goes on a lash adjuster that uses oil pressure I believe, similar to a hydraulic lifter and have to pump up. Did you crank the engine with the covers off to see if the valves are opening completely? If they aren't that could possibly be the reason for the low compression. And I'm sure someone with more knowledge of these engines will tell me I'm wrong :003:
Steve: Depending on what I could see up top, getting to the timing chains was my next destination. I need to pull my hood off so I can reach everything a bit easier. If I get that far, I'll have to research what to look for to see if it has jumped timing. I do have the big Mark VIII shop manual.
Very interesting on your OBD 1 vs. OBD 2 comments. Are you saying I could use an engine originally setup for OBD 2 , keep my OBD 1 computer,ignition control module, only 2 oxygen sensors, etc etc. I'd want to keep the intake manifold I've got now so all my fuel lines, throttle cable, throttle position sensor, etc. works.
If that is indeed not a problem for a novice, but just a parts swap, it would open a few more doors for me.
The sixteen runner intake manifold that's on my '95 engine.......do you know if the '97-8 versions still had that setup where the engine only runs on 8 runners up until 3k rpm?
I had converted my coil pack/spark plug wires to a simulated cop setup, btw. My computer thinks it is still sending 4 signals to the coils, the harness I have splits those signals into 2 via wiring, rather than the coils doing it.
Sorry to hear of your pain.
I would be interested in seeing the cause, do you have any photos of the oil filter and gasket?
Terry :canada:
Rich
Jumping ahead a little bit...
In my mind if the one in your car turns out to be no good, I think that having it rebuilt will cost a ton of money like previously stated.
Buying a used one without hearing and seeing it running could be very risky.
If I had to make the decision, I would be looking for a running donor car. Drive it home and get the feel for it and install it. Then again I have no idea how much they would want for
the running car.
Out of curiosity, what do you know about the high mileage spare that you have?
I feel your pain. Jay
Didn't take pics of the filter after I removed it.....looked normal, 2 gaskets, etc. ::)
Jay, the engine was running when I bought it, no knocks, but in definete need of attention, but I figured at the time on a rebuild. Hasn't run for 10-12 years now. Not something I want in my car without a rebuild. I'll wait until the right deal comes along. The one I ended up using was a babied, one owner 52K mile car with repairable rear quarter collision damage. Pretty slim I'll find one of those again, but a lot of Lincolns are old lady cars, so there is a chance.
UMM
Rich I think that I have the solution but only older guys from Mass. would know what I'm talking about.
Here goes.....How about if you took it to Adventure Car Hop in Saugus and shouted
Woo Woo Ginsburg? Then they would give you another one for free. Right?
Jay
2 gaskets???? Did you read my post #57
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-03-10 11:38
Didn't take pics of the filter after I removed it.....looked normal, 2 gaskets, etc. ::)
Jay, . but a lot of Lincolns are old lady cars, so there is a chance.
X2 on that about the old lady cars, so there is still a chance.
Rich, Let me add my two cents if you would, don't do anything yet until you have pulled the engine and checked it out, it may need little in terms of cost compared to other used motors. Your entire engine is not short, just parts, maybe it needs bearings, a cylinder hone and rings,if bottom end is good maybe cams. Take a step back and think about what needs to be done first and then next. Your time doing that is not costing you money and then you know were your at and then make your decision on what is best to do. I wish you luck. John V
Rich, I must say they look a lot better than expected. You have that one cap that is scored, but no way as bad as the one I posted.
It seems like all four cams would have to be out of time for you to have low compression all the way across the board.
Here's a couple of things you can try:
1.) Add a little oil to one cylinder and do a compression check again. If the compression goes up, it's probably rings.
2.) Remove the spark plug and bring the cylinder to TDC. Install a fitting onto your compression tester and screw it into the spark plug hole and hook up an air hose to it. I wouldn't go more than 10-12 psi and see if you hear any air leaking from the valves. If you do, than it probably jumped time.
Again, like many have said; I would tear down and rebuild rather than going the junkyard route, but that's just me.
Let us know what you find.
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2019-03-10 11:52
2 gaskets???? Did you read my post #57
I'm with hiball, ; you shouldn't have had two gaskets, the old one must have gotten stuck to the block. If it did, you didn't really over tighten the filter, the stacked gaskets caused the oil to bypass the old gasket that probably squeezed out. bawl
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2019-03-10 11:52
2 gaskets???? Did you read my post #57
Yeah, I was being sarcastic. I'm just kicking myself because I always clean the sealing surface where the oil filter mounts, but apparently didn't do it this time because if I had I would have seen the old one still stuck on there. Amazing how one simple forgetful thing can lead to bigger things.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-03-10 14:28
Yeah, I was being sarcastic. I'm just kicking myself because I always clean the sealing surface where the oil filter mounts, but apparently didn't do it this time because if I had I would have seen the old one still stuck on there. Amazing how one simple forgetful thing can lead to bigger things.
:sad10: :sad2:
Post #3. It's happened to me a couple times. Fortunately I caught it before it emptied out 4 quarts of oil from 2.3 Pinto.
Quote from: rmk57 on 2019-03-10 14:48
Post #3. It's happened to me a couple times. Fortunately I caught it before it emptied out 4 quarts of oil from 2.3 Pinto.
X2 what rmk57 stated. That happened to me also.
Rich, those cam bearing surfaces don't look bad at all. you need to understand what the hydro chain tensioner(s) and cam advance / lifters do in your engine. there are a lot of things that you need to find out before further trouble shooting. could you put mechanical tension to the tensioners with some kind of leverage?
I just did the compression test on the left bank. Significant difference, unfortunately, worse.
front to back
1= 20 dry, 70 wet(mystery oil)
2= 0 dry, 0 wet
3=20 dry, 20 wet
4= 30 dry, 40 wet
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-03-10 15:55
I just did the compression test on the left bank. Significant difference, unfortunately, worse.
front to back
1= 20 dry, 70 wet(mystery oil)
2= 0 dry, 0 wet
3=20 dry, 20 wet
4= 30 dry, 40 wet
Man, I'm really sorry to hear that Rich, sounds like it may have jumped time on that bank. I would start with #2, which I assume is cylinder #6. If you haven't already, pull the valve cover and bring that cylinder to TDC and look at the valves, they should all be closed. If they look closed, pump say air into the cylinder and listen for leaks.
One question, do we know for sure that the compression gauge you are using is accurate? The reason I ask, is that you are pretty much in the same range, =/- 10 lbs in all cylinders except #6 . If you bent a valve/valves in #6, that could be your backfire problem.
I'd check it on a motor that you know has good compression. Just a thought.
I have to assume it's accurate. I borrowed it from my mechanic friend. It's a Mac Tools. $400 he told me when he said to be careful with it. I hate borrowing tools and would never ask. He just went and grabbed it for me.
Going to pull that valve cover later, I'm particularly curious about the timing chain on this bank. I have to move the hydroboost to get the valve cover off.
Hi Rich, due to the time difference between USA and NZ it makes it a bit difficult to have a cohesive conversation but we?ll do the best we can.
Now that you have done the compression test on the other bank it pretty much confirms the bent valves. Due to theses engines not being free running, anytime the cam timing goes out, you will have valve to piston contact and, as the valves are quite small in the stem it doesn?t take much to ping them over and they don?t have to be off by much for them to leak compression (and it will have multiple bent valves). As someone mentioned earlier, a cylinder leakage test will confirm it, but based on the information you have provided, I think it?s a given.
If you do go for a used engine, as mentioned earlier, you should be able widen your choice of available engines by not worrying about the OBD1 vs 2. I?m also pretty sure all DOHC 4.6?s used the variable intake manifold runner control (IMRC). If not, it?s not that big a job to swap manifolds, as well as all your other stuff off the existing engine to keep your configuration the same.
Rich
What junior58 says makes a lot of sense to me. I'm sure that others will chime in also.
Jay
Great info, Junior, thanks. Sure increases the choices of what I can look for. Wished I had a '96(pre-PATS)OBD II setup, but don't want to have start from scratch with the expensive wiring. I'll spend a few days getting my garage cleaned up, and make room for an orderly disassemble. Got a few changes I want to make to the car while the engine is out. The whole process is going to take me a few months at best.
Sorry to hear Rich. I know nothing about these engines; is it not easy to drop the pan to take a look and see what, if anything is there? Or do you have to pull engine because of no room?
Rich.. been away from the board and just read all 6 pages.....I have too nothing to offer, but don't beat yourself up.We have all been there in some shape or form..... I really feel there will be a silver lining soon and all will be good....... Take care.
what if you could pull the oil pan with engine still in car and check for debris and inspect rod caps and bearings. if all looks still good down there it should be possible to just pull heads from car and have them rebuilt the traditional way - cut valve seats and replace damaged valves. No ?
DJ, I would have to think the cylinders probably got scored at this stage of the game...
If it were mine, I would pull it and tear it down.
Just my $0.02
Joe
You are probably right Joe. Only a full teardown will make this 100% safe. I still hope that major parts of the engines are found well and alive and can be reused with possibly minor repair work needed to the LH head.
If I haven't found a suitable donor car by the time I get the engine pulled, I'll tear it down for a posible hone/bearing/head rebuild. I checked with Jasper engines. They only do the dohc 4.6s on a custom request only, so would need to ship it to them, BUT 5300.! Yikes, but I'm told they are the best, it just won't happen with me. When I was talking to my friend this morning returning his compression tester, he was just finishing up a 72 chev pickup......2700. for a new 350 longblock
Ask your buddy that loaned you the compression tester if he has a bore scope you could borrow. That may tell you something.
Rich,
I found some sources for rebuilt engines (links below). These run $3000 - $3500 for a long block. Might be worth it if your car actually needs one. Piece of mind since you drive your car a lot (with a warranty).
https://www.jegs.com/i/ATK-Engines/059/DFM6/10002/-1
https://www.supercoupeperformance.com/1993-98-46l-dohc-remanufactured-engine-long-block-410
https://www.autozone.com/powertrain/engine
RMK..won't need the borescope, the engine is being pulled anyway, then the heads.
Thor... a big thanks for the leads. I particularly like the Jegs, as far as I can tell by their description anyway, but the supercoupe place says they use the same re-manufacturer as Ford. 3k is a lot more doable than 5.3k. I've heard Jasper is the best, in fact that's who the Ford senior technician that was looking at my car 5 or 6 months ago uses, but as I mentioned, out of my price range.
I did go over and talk to the FordMan I mentioned today. I was hoping he might have known about an engine. He did confirm what Junior told me about being able to use an OBD II engine with the older controls. As soon as he gets his computer fixed, he is going to double check on something about a possible issue with the obd II crankcase sensor setup and let me know
Rich,
My bet (based on them advertising "factory rebuilt for Ford" comment that they may be getting them
from AER Remanufactured Engines. I think they are in Carrollton TX. Looks like they have a cool car museum too. Link Below.
https://www.aermanufacturing.com/manufacturing/remanufactured-engines/
Cool video from their site.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=449&v=9nLnauiVXiU
I'm going to make some phone calls tomorrow to see if AER has distributors other than Ford dealers, and hopefully one in this area, or if in fact that is Supercoupes supplier. Supercoupes doesn't list an address that I can see. They may only be an internet company?
That's a heck of an operation that AER has
Bummer..though I had it nailed down to AER. Called for pricing only to find they had stopped rebuilding those in 2015. They told me availability of cores dried up.
Supercoupe performance has not returned my call, but maybe a good thing now, AER told me they were not on their list of distributors, at least under that name.
Supercoup performance told me the mark viii engines were no longer avaiable. Never did tell me if they were AER, just said his supplier said Mark VIII engines are getting really hard to find. Jegs looks like the source now, and he did confirm they are available with a 5 week delivery date.
Not for nothing Rich, but don't you have any machine shops near you? Other than buying Ford crate motors, I have had all my engine work done by local guys that have been doing work for me since the late 70's.
Rock Auto lists a long block as well. It says "unavailable, asked to be notified when available.
We had a local engine builder here for years, Dreamchasers, but I believe they disappeared 5 or 6 years ago. Don't really want to have it done locally. Reading about the first few paragraphs of the attached link on rebuilding the dohc, confirms I neither want to attempt it myself as a first, nor have it done by someone who "did one once".
https://www.diyford.com/how-to-assembly-ford-4-6l-5-4l-engines-step-by-step/
Getting a bit more organized in web searches for insurance auctions. Actually found 2 Marks with less than 70k, one in Florida with 55K that looks more like 555k in swamp runs. Another with 64k coming up today in Tennessee, don't have time to get set up for it. So..they're still out there.
Rich, I know this might be somewhat offensive, but at this point it needs asked I think. ( since the availability and price of the 4.6 seems to be such a problem). What if...289, 351, 302 ? 5.0Litre FI....possibly a mechanical AOD?
Today there are even very affordable aftermarket fuelinjection systems, fully computer controlled to be put successfully on former naturally aspired older engines. I do believe that such FI systems start at $800 or below and are available for most any older carb set up. I am just thinking out loud and you can smite me several times if you don't want me to say things like that.... :002:
no no no, lol. Although not traditional, I had what I considered as close to the perfect setup as I'll ever have, and will go back to it. Now, if I had been so-so with the drivetrain for 26,000 miles I'd be considering it. The Marks are out there, I just need to find the right one, then it'll be just a bolt-in. Or, if I get too antsy, the rebuild from Jegs is doable $ wise. Then it'll be just a bolt-in. I started disassembling today.
Nice thing if I can find a donor car is all the spare parts.......tranny, driveshaft, fans/shroud,alt., starter, etc etc
Rich, there are a ton of mods and rebuilds being done to these 4.6 DOHC motors. I would try some of the Mustang forums and see what you can come up with.
Now, if it was me.....I'd be leaning more towards the 5.0 Coyote motor, available in several different configurations, anywhere from 412- 580 hp in the Mustang and 360-395 hp from the F150, all running on 87 octane pump gas. These MOD motors have really come a long way since they were first introduced in the 1990 Lincolns and the later versions may be a better choice. I have a coyote in my truck and love it, and I'm a pushrod V-8 guy. :003:
:roadrunner:
(https://i.imgur.com/4sZwQnf.png)
:003: 435HP :003:
Rich, I see that you are committed to get your pretty car back on the road asap and in same configuration as before, because you like all the benifits of a modern engine. I keep my fingers crossed that you can have your original engine repaired or find a good used and reasonably priced replacement!
Like Joe said, those cars and engines shouldn't be that rare, at least not around where you live.
Rich,
Saw this 95 on Craigslist for $1195. Doesn't list mileage though. Might be worth calling on.
https://springfield.craigslist.org/cto/d/pomona-1995-lincoln-mark-viii/6837523265.html
Yep, MAYBE exactly what I was hoping to find. It's a little late in the evening, but I called him anyway and left a message.
Thanks a ton! I've almost got enough sheetmetal to fix that car, lol
He called back. I suspected since he didn't state the mileage on the Craigslist ad, that it was high, and it was, at least higher than I want. 162K
Some of the best low mileage used cars I have found are in mobile home parks where there are seniors. These usually never get listed on line, the down side is it's time consuming.
Rich
I rent part of my building to a guy that does auto repair. I was telling him about your situation and he has a customer with a 97 Town car with frame rot. It still drives well. The mileage is about 155K price is about $700 he thinks. Do you want me to get more information ?
My property is commercial so you could keep it here as long as you need to. No charge.
If you still have my number, you can call me.
Jay
I appreciate the offer, Jay, but the Towncars are a single overhead cam motor. Tons of them around and cheap.
There's a Mark VIII coming up for auction in Oklahoma City with 85K miles.....a bit more miles than what I was hoping to find, but car looks like it was very well taken care of. Heavy front side damage too extensive to repair, but says it still runs and drives, so hopefully no engine compartment damage. Being a non repairable car, I expect it will go cheap.....500ish. Transporting shouldn't be too bad, OKC to Amarillo is about 280 miles.
It costs 200 annually to join the auction company's list of buyers(non-refundable), but Oklahoma is one of about 25 states that allows the public to buy. (Texas is not). One cannot bid on cars there until they are members.
Getting lots undone on the '57, getting close to all the up-top stuff being undone. Had to move the hydroboost over for the engine to clear. Couldn't do it with the brake lines still hooked up. I undid the 2 lines to the proportioning valve and left that in place, and removed the master from the hydroboost which I was then able to move over to the side with all of its fluid lines still intact. I'm thinking about maybe dropping the A/C compressor off the engine with those lines still intact........if I can get it out of the way.
All this stuff is alot tougher to get at than when I installed the motor/tranny with the front sheetmetal off..............and I was a lot younger.
would it be very troublesome to realign your front end if you pulled it now? I think it is only 8 bolts fenders to cowl and the single sprung center bolt of the radiator core support and the whole frontend could be pulled as one piece. maybe this would make sense since you will have to swap engines and possibly some hardware, exhaust aso.
I thought about it, will try without removing. I'm working alone for the most part, so it would have to be a piece by piece removal, and besides that, all my AC stuff and alot of wiring is attached to the inner fenderwell. I may remove the passenger outer fender only to redo my heater hoses, but only if I have to. I think once the engine is out, I can maneuver my arms enough while standing in the engine bay to get to those hoses . Those pretty ss flex coolant hoses have been nothing but trouble.
It took me a month to get all the front end sheetmetal aligned to a acceptable, but not real good, alignment. That's why I've got no hair.
OK Rich
If things don't work out, let me know and I'll do whatever I can.
I have been working by myself for years and years. It does not get any easier. In the long run with all you have to do, I think that taking the nose off would make life a lot easier and there will be less chance of damaging your nice paint.
But only you know what your whole situation is.
Jay
Quote from: djfordmanjack on 2019-03-14 18:44
... I think it is only 8 bolts fenders to cowl and the single sprung center bolt of the radiator core support and the whole frontend could be pulled as one piece. ...
Is it really that easy to pull the front clip? Never saw the process described or pictured here.
When I got my ratty '58 Ranchero I also had to take a whole & very rusted out '58 Ford front clip. After it sat behind my garage for quite awhile I started taking it apart so I could store the separate parts in another spot.
I was surprised to find it to be such a PIA. Many hard to reach nuts & bolts near the grille area that would not come apart due to rust. Since dealing with 'em like
forever I probably know all the methods & tricks for dealing frozen stuck, broken, & rusted fasteners. But with nut & bolt heads rounding off, not being able to get at them with a tool needed to cut them or just make them break in two & so on it took a
lot of time & work.
Tom, I get your point as I have been working on 3 different 57Fords that needed some part if not all removed from the frontend, either fender, grill, radiator support and whatnot. Thankfully Rich will most probably have all fresh bolts that will come apart easily now.
But- yes - the whole frontend was attached in the factory as a unit. that's what makes it so hard to reach a lot of the grill hardware.
I was maybe a bit understating with the number of bolts. In my mind I picture the lower rear fender bolt, then the middle A pillar, upper a pillar at fresh air intake and the self tapping screw on the windshield doglegs.
then there is another bolt that holds the inner fender to the fire wall. so that makes 5 per side ( maybe I am forgetting some?).
Assuming that Rich already has pulled his hood / which would be much too heavy to take off as a unit anyways, there really only is that front center bolt for the radiator support, which rides on a little leaf spring.
What I forgot is that the front outer bumper ends are attached to the front lower fenders/splash apron/grill housings so those brackets would have to be unbolted at least at the bumper brackets or all 6 of those bolts and 2 brackets removed to avoid scratches. I do believe that the bumper can stay attached to frame, so this could spare you some realignment later on ( which is not easy with those huge backsweapt bumper ends).
I hear what Rich states about all the little and big accessory stuff attached to his inner fenders and that could really kill all of what we said before. If I was to pull the whole frontend, I would tape all the fender/door/cowl edges with good quality paint masking tape ( the blue or green one) in triple layers and have at least 2 men help. so that 1 person could lift each fender at the wheel openings and the third person keep a look at the firewall area, prying loose sticky seals or shims and finally keep the nose portion level upon removal.
Removing just one fender will include lots more bolts and hardware and might be more difficult to access those and realign the fender afterwards, but I can see Rich's point where he wants to keep his accessories, hoses and lines attached in order and not having to remove everything from engine compartment.
Rich, have you used the Nationwide Craig's List, in searching for a replacement engine / car? You might want to try it.
John
John, I have not not all that familiar with craigslist, but I'll do some research. I think you sent some photos to my iphone, but I haven't been able to open them.
I'm really trying to not undo the A/C with all the aeroquip braided stainless fittings. If the A/C has got to be undone, I might look into removing the grille, nose piece, and core support..........clearing a path sorta so I can come straight out with the engine and tranny. Thinking also about just pulling the engine and tranny forward a few inches so I can reach the bellhousing bolts and leaving to tranny in there. Otherwise, I'll need to drop the tranny crossmember and the Rack and pinion to avoid damage.
Had my nephew help me remove the hood yesterday. That was almost a disaster....at the last moment I noticed he had his hand on the fender and not supporting the hood he was about to remove the last bolt from. :017:. Pretty much the reason I'm working mostly alone.
I use search tempest once in awhile, works pretty good . https://www.searchtempest.com/
Yes, that is where I was going to send Rich.
Rich, give this site a try. Plug in what you are looking for and how far out you want to look.You could look for the specific whole car or just the engine or "Parts for a _ _ _ _ Lincoln". You just never know how a seller might describe his listing. It's worth a try.
Another place to look is COPART these are salvage cars.It's an auction site. Might have to pay a fee to be able to bid. I did a quick look, but couldn't recall the year you need, but there are two '95's that I saw. Lowest mileage was 91K. Again, worth a look.
John
I just got home from a eight hour ride with my son. He bought an engine from a specialty auto wrecking yard that sells used running engines on a skid. He is converting to a different engine so he got everything needed. The engine was attached to a skid with radiator, harness, accessories, ECM, accelerator pedal (drive by wire), fuel pump, air box, manifolds, and fuel pump. As we inspected the engine and confirmed the documentation and VIN, a yard worker turned the key and started the engine. The ECM had been flashed to tune the engine, look for the specific transmission and eliminate the security (chip key). All lines and wires were labeled and connected. The engine have coolant in the radiator and gas to run with scan tool plugged in to confirm a no-code state. Connectors were supplied and free after purchase ECM flash updates. This is perfect for my son's Jeep conversion to LS.
I asked about 4.6 but nothing. They did fire up a ready for delivery Coyote.
Quote from: gasman826 on 2019-03-15 15:08They did fire up a ready for delivery Coyote.
:iamsmiling:
That sounds like a great setup............bummer they didn't have any 4.6s, but thanks for checking. What did your son get, and how expensive?
I keep an eye on Copart as well as IAA. Got several cars I'm watching for a release on.
During some tear down today, I pulled the left valve cover. Broken secondary timing chain. Lots of galling on the cam.
I checked out the search tempest. neat search engine. Need to do some more with it, but so far nothing like I'm looking for. Can't remember if I posted that I'm watching one on the auction sites that would work. It's in OKC, so not too bad for transporting charges. it's got 85k on it, but should be pretty cheap since the car is not salvageable. It hasn't been released for auction yet, so I'm still looking.
https://bakersfield.craigslist.org/cto/d/bakersfield-96-lincoln-mark-8/6817191115.html
Rich , Road trip
Does have to be a Lincoln? What engine is in the CV? I'm doing a road trip today to Santa Maria and will keep my eye out.
As far as I know for sure, yes, Lincoln Mark VIII only. Mercury Marauder is the same, but very rare. I honestly don't know about the crown vics, police cars for example. I've got conflicting info as to what was available in the CVs....some say SOHC, others say DOHC. Not 100% sure the guys that gave that info to me know the difference with the confusing Ford sohc vs dohc designations. Can't believe I'd ever find/want a lo miles CV police unit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfW-NetgZCo
Wordy but it will tell you "who, what, and where" you can find a 4.6 DOHC. They are all identical with respect to the long block. Any one of these will "bolt" in Rich, all you have to do is swap all the sensors, drives, and "stuff" from your long block to the new one.
Great info, Bill. thanks for the link. One of the four they talk about, I've been told will not work though, and that's the front wheel drive Continental. Not sure about the Aviator's drive. Looking at rebuilt motors for the Mark Viii, nobody has listed it also fitting a Continental.
Broken secondary chain between the inlet and exhaust cams, probably a result of cam seizing in the head. The problem with rebuilding from this point would be getting all the aluminium swarf out of all the oil galleries so that you didn?t have a repeat issue. Definitely think a replacement engine is the way to go. Good luck with your search.
Yes, Steve. The cam was definitely galled to the caps.......I broke one cap trying to separate the two. Discoloration from excessive heat as well.
Got a couple questions............near the back end of both sides of the intake manifold, there are vacuum valves(?) attached to an adjustable bracket of sorts that has the adjustment screws loctited into place.Something set at the factory obviously. Anybody have an idea of their function? I can post a pic if needed.
I'm thinking maybe an adjustment for when the second set of 8 intake runners kicks in?
What's the best guess on whether or not mine would be rebuildable (if I go that route)? I ask because there is a 550. core charge only refundable once they receive the engine and determine if it is rebuildable.
:dontknow: Wifey is wanting me to go the rebuilt route so I don't have a parts car hanging around for weeks.
:unitedstates:Are the motors that rare where you live Rich?I sold a nice 5.0 from a 91 Mustang for $500.......I would not rebuild ....my 2 cents....racton
Hey Richard, Not rare at all..........unless you're looking for a low mileage one. The vintage I'm looking for is 1995ish, so 24years old,hard to find with the 60-80k miles I'm hoping for, added to the fact I'm trying to find that in a running collision damaged car. I've had a 162k mile engine sitting in the back yard of our old house for 6 years. Lots of them in salvage yards.
Rich, another stupid comment from me. But what if you just pulled the one head from your backup engine and put it on your block in car. it could make for a quick repair until you find a good low milage replacement to put in as a winter project next season. You can't damage much more on your engine in car as it already has been bruised and needs an overhaul anyways.
That's a possibility I guess. What I'm thinking though, is I had a bad loss of compression in the right bank also, and I can't see any way the timing on one side would affect the other, so both heads. I guess it's possible the left bank was binding so bad, it caused the right bank to jump the crankshaft sprocket. Maybe I'll pull the left head for a look at the pistons/cylinders.
On the temporary fix, the more I think about it, I probably won't. I want to get this done right and have something dependable. I have to look back and think I'm really glad I drove the heck out of it for the past 3 years. It would have been just as easy to mess up an oil change on a car that was only driven a few hundred miles a year. Kinda goes back to the "what am I saving the car for?" discussion we had recently with Doug/57 Imposter..... which is really ironic in itself, since Doug and I were hoping to meet in Colorado this year, and the last time we were making plans to meet for a cruise, he was on his way here when I had to cancel because I wrecked the car. Maybe I need to stop planning things with Doug, lol. Anyway, with all the miles I've been putting on it, it makes it a bit easier to live with the downtime.
I do have everything undone that I could reach from the topside......... radiator, fuel, wiring, I did unhook the A/C I talked about trying to leave. I had forgotten the two lines at the compressor were just springlock fittings, not the Aerquip I'm wanting to leave intact. IOne of the two fuel line springlock fittings is not wanting to come loose, so I just pulled the whole fuel log for now.
We pushed out the car yesterday so I could clean up the garage floor from the oil loss/bags of speedi-dry. Now it's clean so I can get it up on jackstands and start the underside stuff.
Rich,
Off Dallas Craig's List:
https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ptd/d/dallas-lincoln-mark-viii-parting-out/6839979608.html
looks like a good inventory of salvage cars in Dallas !
Fully understand that you really want to do a proper job and have it roadworthy and dependable again. so you can hop in it and go for your 600 mile drives. I have such a car in my 34 sdn with a 302 and C4 in it.
on the other hand my 57 is not yet as roadworthy and dependable, and I have rarely used it last year, also for that reason. So I totally get your point of not doing half thing repairs. It would be an option though if things should not work out with a good replacement engine soon, long delivery time with engine shops or financial issues.
I see that a lot of our boys come up with great infos on auction and wrecking yards, so pretty sure you'll have a good used engine by the end of the month.
Got lots to think about today. One of the forum members that I had physically met a few years ago called me today. He had been planning to put a 4.6dohc from a Mark VIII in his '57. Since I started this thread, he's thought about it alot and he's decided that project probably wasn't going to happen. What he has is from a '93 Mark VIII with 55k miles that had been sideswipped. He has the engine, tranny, driveshaft, computer, wiring harness, shifter, and more. He was at a trusted salvage yard he frequently did business with when he saw them dismantling it, so he did not get to hear it run, but he talked to the guys and bought it. That was about 12 years ago.
Fast forward a little bit, he had the oportunity to buy the drivetrain from a friend's good running '94 Mark VIII, mileage unknown for some reason,so he aquired it as well for another project. Same list of components that I listed above.
He wanted to let me know it was available, but also said if he were in my shoes, he'd be doing what I'm doing looking for a running donor car or a remanufactured engine. He wants to sell everything as a lot, both drivetrains. Said if he didn't sell the stuff to me, he'd probably keep it, so no hurry on the decision. He can even deliver it all to Amarillo for me since I don't have a pickup truck. That's about 900 miles roundtrip. His price for everything, including delivery will put it pretty close to what I was figuring the "running,driving"auction car with 85k in OKC will end up costing me after fees, transportation, etc.
I was avoiding a pulled engine that I couldn't hear run, but the "paper trail", sorta speak, is looking good on what he has.
Lots to think about. More risks than a remanufactured (at twice the $), or a running donor car, but less miles than I'll probably be able to find elsewhere.
Well, my bad hearing strikes again,and I stand corrected. About the second '94 motor,I thought he said he did not hear running, what he actually said was it was not running when pulled from the car. Basically it needs to be considered a spare parts engine. As mentioned in the previous post, I knew he did not hear the 93 engine running either, that one I got right.
I feel sorry for people, like my wife, who have to deal with 1/2 deaf people all the time.
Rich, I tell my wife of 52 years that I'm not going deaf, I just have "selective" hearing!
Rich, I looked at a 97 Mark in February when I was in Florida for the Daytona 500. I've always wanted one, anyways, it was $2500, lower mileage but has to much beach salt damage. Not worth the trouble to bring back to Wisconsin. I have his # if you are interested. Mark
Thanks Mark, too far away. I've got options closer to home. If you really want a nice one, there's a '93(?) all black one for sale on I think Autotrader. it's 15 grand, but only has 35 hundred miles. I spelled that out so you wouldn't think it was a typo.
I'm waiting to hear on a local one I can get for next to nothing. They stopped driving it a year or so ago because of a bad air suspension. The guy I talked to was renting the house from the Mark's owner. They gave him the title to the car and told him to get rid of it. He said it ran good, but he thought the mileage was over 100k. he's going to find the key, hook up a battery and let me know about the mileage. They were getting ready to call a salvage yard when I talked to him. I was hoping to hear something yesterday, but didn't. I'll go back by there later today. He said the salvage yard would give them 200, I made sure he understood it would be worth more than that to me if the mileage was low enough. wanted to make sure he didn't take the easy way to get rid of it.
Today has started out really really good. I was checking the insurance auto auction site again, when I noticed they also had a used parts division, so I did a search. Came up with a '95 Lincoln Mark VIII engine with only 33k miles! I called and it was still available. Price was good at 884., shipping from Ohio was great at 185! I jumped on it. They've confirmed the order, will let me know when it ships. They did include the vin number, so I can verify it's what they actually send.
Awesome Rich, I hope that works out well for you.
X 2! :iamwithstupid:
That is good news, you should be in good shape.
Rich
I hope that this works out for you. You need a break.
Jay
I'm pulling for you Rich, I wish I lived closer, I'd come get in your way!!
Thanks all! this is going to be a long process, I just can't spend more than 3-4 hours spread out over the day, and my work rate is very very slow. Lack of energy.
The engine shipped out today from Ohio, and I did get my valve covers and some brackets dropped off to the powder coater. I'm hoping to round up some help for Saturday and get the engine pulled.
I ran a vehicle vin history report on the engine I bought. The car spent it's first 19 years in Vermont, the only title work being done in 2014 in Ohio. The report did not state if that was due to an ownership change. Mileage at that time was 27k. No negative reports on the car including collision, water damage, theft. etc. Not sure why it ended up being parted out, except the high probability now was that it was a rust victim seeing as the two states were Vermont and Ohio.
Oops..misread the report. It's always been in Ohio with one retitle in '14.
Not a good day. I received the engine, and I'm waiting for some feedback, but I believe they pulled a switcheroo. The engine I got looked like it had been sitting for a while. There was masking tape on the intake ports that was obviously there for years. The packing slip with the engine showed a different vin number than what was given on the 33k mile engine ad. I ran a vehicle history report on that vin number, and it came up with a car with no mileage reports thru out it's history, and the donor car was given a salvage title back in 2012, in Texas!! I pulled one valve cover, and it's not too bad underneath, but definitely dirtier than my current engine with 80k miles.
I calmly called the Parts Market company in San Francisco and explained the problem. She was very nice, said they did not operate that way, That the engine I ordered was verified by the salvage co. in Ohio as still available, so there was no reason they should have switched. She's passing it on to a manager, and I should have some info as to what happened, and what will happen. She emphasized I would be taken care of. we'll see.
sheeeeet..........looks like I may be back to looking.
I did tell her there was no way I was accepting an engine with unknown, or high, mileage. I could buy them all day long locally for a lot less than what I paid
Be traveling some place warm and I'm slow on the up swing. Ohio? What city? If feet on the ground would help, I'll be in Cleveland this weekend.
Thanks, but the people I ordered from are actually in San Francisco. I'll let them deal with the salvage yard in Ohio, which is in Swanton, OH. One of those times when I wished I had used my Paypal account. The only reason I didn't was I believe paypal won't accept orders which the billing is different than shipping. I had it delivered to my friend's shop.
My first conversation with them left me feeling like they were an upstanding company, and they would take care of it. Of course, what I really want is the engine I paid for, not my money back.
Rich, on a side note- it is no problem at all to have several different shipping adresses with paypal. I have had parts shipped to other locations than stated billing adress and it always worked fine.
Let's hope that they just switched palettes.
Dang Rich, talk about bad luck.....I feel for ya. Sorry but I am just at a loss for words for all you've gone through. All that can be said is hang in there, it will get better.
Well that enough to piss off the Pope :005: Hard to believe people would do such a thing.
Damn... Let's hope it was an honest mistake rich.. and they will make it right...... I too would be nervous and furious.....
Parts Market called me this morning. No hasstle whatsoever. We talked about the engine ad vs what I got. She told me they called the salvage yard and were told "well, it's the only one we have, so it must have been the one with 33k miles". My reply was....that doesn't explain the two vin numbers does it? She responded, "exactly, what do you want to do?" I told her I wanted to return it, even if they credited me the full amount, I wouldn't go thru all the trouble to install it. She is scheduling it for a pick up, and as soon as it is received, they will credit my debit card. So, if they actually do that, I have to give them huge kuddos for customer support.
I also told her I honestly thought it was an out and out scam, not on their part, but the particular salvage company, and that they needed to keep an eye on them. She totally agreed.
lots of hassles, but sounds ok so far. good to know there are dealers that will stand for their promises.
Undue worries and no engine for you, Rich, but at least money back!
Chapter 539........Got the process started on another engine today. Found a place in Cal. called Engine World. Their intro says they only sell low miles engines, and have thousands in stock. They bill themselves as the world's largest supplier of used engine assemblies. Pics of their warehouses are incredible. Japanese, European, etc engines are only inventoried with a max of 50k miles, and domestic engines a max of 80k.They do not keep track of vin numbers, so it's a trust thing, but there is a big BUT......
1:they do not sell engine parts, so whatever came on the engine is still on it (the one I got earlier this week was stripped to bare long block)
2: they only purchase engines under the limitations on mileage
3: Once an order is placed, they pull the engine from their warehouse and take pics, do a compression test, and oil pressure test. The pics and test results are then emailed to the customer for acceptance before the engine is packed up and shipped out.
He said the compression test would only show a pass or fail, not the actual results, but on my engine the reading they are looking for is a minimum of 160#. If any cylinder does not meet that, it does not get shipped out.
Shipping from cal with added lift tailgate charges is 300, the engine is 650. He was guessing that engine was probably there for a while because of the low price . I may get test results later today, if not tomorrow. They did have an engine listed for every year Mark VIII's were made, so if there's a problem with the first one, they have others to try.
www.engineworld.com
Interesting Rich, never heard of them but they look like a first class outfit. I've heard of many other places that sell low mileage Jap engines because at 50,000 miles they take their cars off the road, anyone hear that is true?
Next chapter.....gonna have a whole book here again pretty soon. They called early afternoon to alert me to the emailed info. They actually sent short videos of each cylinder's compression test, along with still photos. Test was good, compression gage was a little out of focus, but I could clearly tell the readings were all very close and about halfway between the 150 and 200 marks on the gage. Engine looked good (they power degrease/wash them just prior to the testing). I studied each picture closely because something just didn't look quite right. First I noticed the date of manufacture, 10/95 which would have made it a '96, not 95 engine. That would have been ok, but I kept trying to figure out if the differences I was noticing was just the '96 model which I wasn't familiar with. Then I noticed in one pic, on the workbench beside the engine was a spark plug hole cover that said "CONTINENTAL". The pics didn't include the back of the engine or exhaust manifolds. I called them, talked to a different guy, and told them everything looked good, but I was concerned if they had the correct engine. '96 vs 95, maybe a Conti. engine, etc. He supposedly went out and checked, came back on the phone like 3 minutes later and said the engine was definetly out of a rear wheel drive car. I said ok, go ahead and ship if your sure it's a Mark VIII ,but if this turns out to be for a continental, your getting it back at your expense.
I got off the phone and found some pics of a 96 Continental engine that the details matched up perfectly to the pics they sent me. I called them back, got yet another guy told him I was convinced the engine I said to ship was actually a front wheel drive Continental engine. He said he'd go out and check it out. I kept waiting and waiting, no phone call, so I called back and got the guy I had originally talked with. He said they had in fact originally pulled the wrong engine, and they were getting another one pulled for testing. 1/2 hour later I got videos of the second engine, everything matched my engine perfectly. Compression tests were similar to the first, engine looked even nicer than the first. I called back to give the go-ahead, and the guy said he figured I would, everything looked so good on it, that the engine was being loaded on a fed-ex truck as we spoke. It's on the way, should be here early next week.
The engine I got from the other company still hasn't been picked up yet.
My valve covers and brackets are ready at the powder coater's
:occasion14: :happy1:
Quote from: hiball3985 on 2019-04-03 20:44
Interesting Rich, never heard of them but they look like a first class outfit. I've heard of many other places that sell low mileage Jap engines because at 50,000 miles they take their cars off the road, anyone hear that is true?
Apparently very true. this is what you were talking about I believe. It was in the FAQ's at Engine World
Why import engines & transmissions from Japan?
Most of our Japanese manufacturer products are imported from Japan. The stringent so called Shaken inspection process in Japan mandates that all cars older than 4 years must go through a rigorous inspection at an authorized repair facility. This inspection includes tires, brakes, body damage, engine leaks, and many other areas. This inspection costs from $2,000 to $4,000 dollars each time. As a result, a majority of the Japanese population trade their cars in when this inspection is due and are given huge rebates in return to purchase brand new cars. The Japanese government mandates that over 8 million cars a year must be recycled. There is virtually no used car market in Japan and many of these cars are disassembled and recycled. Some are shipped overseas. That is where we come in. We buy these engines and transmission in bulk after rigorous inspections. These engines and transmissions are very low mileage in excellent condition, with typically less than 50,000 miles.
Hey, that light at the end of the tunnel is NOT an on-coming train!
Never would have thought finding one of these engines low miles would be so stressful. I sure wish I knew about Engine World when this all started. I realized last night they also remanufacture engines. Too late to check in to it, but something to keep in mind.
I did get an email from Parts Market on that first engine. A pick up is scheduled for today. I'm going to try and roundup some muscle this weekend to get my old engine pulled.
Sounds very encouraging Rich!..fingers crossed!
Thanks for confirming that Rich, I didn't take the time to read everything on the site.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-04-04 08:23
.... I'm going to try and roundup some muscle this weekend to get my old engine pulled.
Now if you still lived in Massachusetts :003:
I guess there comes a time in every man's life when he's just got to give up his stubbornness and admit there are things he just can't do any more. I'm going to have to get someone to finish up the engine pull/reinstall. I can do the detail / finishing up work, but my body is not cooperating on this part of it. I'm going to have to separate the engine and tranny to get the engine out without pulling the front clip. The starter is still in the car, and I gashed a knuckle open last night trying to get to those bolts, so now my left hand is almost useless. lol I need a roadtrip.
What a bummer. Sorry to hear that, I am regretting the day I feel that way but we all know that its coming (if we live long enough to see it)! Hang in there. If we were only closer...
I know how you feel. After changing the Y two times and the trans, rear end, I'm still recovering two years later :005: The road trips do help :002:
Quote from: CobraJoe on 2019-04-04 17:10
Now if you still lived in Massachusetts :003:
Rich....That makes two of us. The good thing would be that you would be able to understand us when we talk. That would be another plus for you
Jay
Decided I wasn't going to let my frustration get the best of me. Went back at it Saturday afternoon, and Sunday morning the engine was out of the car. The replacement engine is being delivered tomorrow, but I've got a week or two work before I'm ready for it. That doesn't mean I've gotten stupid though. I don't have the facilities(or strength) to reinstall because of the tranny, so when I get to that point, hopefully my friend at the speed shop will have some open time. Some things are just too much easier with a lift and the right equiptment.
Might have just found my silver lining.............My idling issue I've had since day one and egr related engine codes.........I just found out the egr valve was not seated on the throttle body, was on there kinda cocked with a 1/16 or better gap on one side. Couldn't see it when the engine was in the car.
Rich,
Haven't been on here for a bit. Glad to see you found the engine you wanted. Nice that your finding and fixing some of the issues you were having. Once your done with it this time you should be able to keep it on the road for quite a while. You'll be running around Texas in no time!
Thor
Thanks Thor....I really appreciated the help and offers you gave me. Hope I made the right decision.
My second replacement engine from Engine World arrived yesterday, and got it over to the house today. Looks good, no issues.
I've got to give huge kuddos to Parts Market, the broker for the first engine I got. Even though their sales info specifically states return shipping is at the buyers expense, they not only are not charging me for return shipping, they are refunding the original shipping charges as well!..........a full refund. They obviously agreed with me that the salvage yard pulled an out and out scam. She had actually just put in the refund before I called. Said it normally takes 5 days.
good news all around !
Awesome! You will be back on the road soon.
Most excellent sir!
update.......a little progress in getting the replacement engine ready to install. Tons of time spent cleaning due to the layer of crud over all the outside of the engine. This was due I'm sure to Engine World's attempt at "cleaning". Their cleaning fluids/solvents are in dire need of a change.
I had some parts powder coated, replacing all the sensors with new that I hadn't replaced before, new starter (broke an ear off the old one), new water pump and power steering pump on order. Everything else had already been replaced not too long ago.
Had to pull the intake manifold off the replacement engine. There are two sensors under the intake, along with a coolant pipe. Whoever pulled the engine cut the wires off on the engine side of the connector. Turns out it may have been intentional, as I found a broken sensor when I got into it. At first I was wondering why someone was into that area anyway, but I noticed the rubber connecting hose on the coolant pipe was new and had non-factory hose clamps. While I had it apart, I spent a bunch of time cleaning the intake logs/butterfly valves that control 8 of the 16 intake runners, and checked out the vacuum dashpots that open/close those valves to insure they were functioning properly (they were). That's was another area of concern with the idling issues I was having. The rest of the 'stuff' that control the intake runners can be checked and accessed easily from the top now that I've finally figured out how all that stuff works.
Pics: new engine sitting on pallet, old one is on engine stand.
Sure is pretty!
Like the looks of that cement floor, did my street rod on the ground back in the day (I was young and bullet proof then). Doubt I could do it today! I know you have to be happy with the new place! Working on a hard surface with little worry of things moving around that you don't to move is great!
Looks awesome, shouldn't be long now. You must be excited at the thought of having that idle issue potentially sorted out.
Thanks Bill. By themselves, I really liked the color of silver the valve covers were powder coated with, but it kinda clashes with the air intake now. Not sure what can be done with the intake because of the intricate design. I've sure got my fingers crossed on this engine.........it should be good, with the compression tests and all, but I'm not 100% sure this is in reality a low miles engine as 'guaranteed'. I keep seeing little things like the mentioned coolant hose replaced under the intake, some torn areas on the covering/coating on the fuel log, etc. I'm really anxious to see what the oil pan looks like when I get to it later this week.
Yeah, concrete floors are wonderful. This wouldn't even have been doable in my old dirt floor shelter where the car was built. Thanks for the reminder, I hadn't even thought of that aspect of it.........sure could have been a bigger headache.
Gotta get away from it for a few days. My daily driver Outback is in need of new front bearing hubs and a power steering pump rebuild................and my yard needs some attention.
Engine looks good, it won't be long and you will be back on the road :burnout:
I'm at least a month away. After I get the engine ready, I want to do some work on the steering and a few other things before the engine goes back in. I'm not sure if I'm going to even attempt the reinstall if my friend at the speed shop has some open time. I just checked the weather, rain coming in today and tomorrow, so my Outback will have to wait a few more days.
The positive is being able to get the other things done while the engine is out. Also I have read were many of these engines have run 2-300,000 miles.
Rich, the heater line is a common problem on those engines. The failure is more time related then miles. Later engines 96 - 98 were less prone to that issue, no idea why.
Considered painting/coating them the same blue the 05 & 06 GT valve covers had?
That rubber connection under the intake is puzzling. Doesn't need to be a flexible connection there, and the pipe is securely fastened to the block at the other end, so there is going to be no movement at the connection..... Very similar to the cowl drain issue in '57.
A note on intakes on the 4 cam engines......I had been told that the intake on these may be plastic. Mine is definitely not. All 22 pieces that are assembled(probably dip brazed?) are all aluminum, including the tubes. They never looked plastic to me, but since I had heard that, I scrapped a spot of the coating off the extra intake I now have.
Yesterday at the Pate swap meet, I did see an intake from a newer Cobra ('04?) that definitely was plastic.
Rich, I think only the 4.6 1996-2001 had the plastic manifolds, there was a class action suite about these. My mother-in-laws cracked and Ford dealer paid for the repair. Changed design in 2002. I don't know about the Cobra motors.
Seems like every day for the past week or more, I stop work thinking...... maybe tomorrow the engine will be ready for install. I can't believe how long this is taking.
Ran into an interesting, but annoying, snag yesterday concerning unexpected differences in year to year 4.6's. The engine I had was a '95 Mark VIII. It was converted to front sump using an oil pan/pick up tube from a Continental, not sure of the exact vintage, I'm thinking '95ish also. Naturally, those parts were removed from my old engine to be installed on the replacement. The replacement engine is a 94, one year older. That oil pickup tube would not fit on the '94 engine!!!! The rear sump tube tube I removed is 13/16 (.810)dia. and the Continental pick up tube, that fit fine on my 95 engine, is 15/16 (.935).
I cut off the flange and a few inches of tubing from both pickup tubes and welded one together that should work.
As a former shipmate once said, "those are opportunities".........
Yep, it was an oportunity to dust off my welder for the first time at the new house and test the garage's circuitry. I was kinda surprised the tank still had shielding gas after 3 years or so. Must have good shut off valves.
The modified pick up tube fit great, got the oil pan put on. Next was the new power steering pump, which I promptly found out had some damage. This project is going to fight me to the end!
I buy most my stuff from Rockauto when I can, this was the first return I've had, so I was curious how easy it would be. Got online, following the instructions for returns packed in the box, and in less than 10 minutes I had a printed out prepaid return Fedex shipping label. They say as soon as the tracking shows it is in transit, they will ship the replacement part. I could have opted for a refund. They also asked if it was fixable and if I wanted to repair it if I was reimbursed.......weird....a common sense approach to doing business. Not use to that.!
JFYI, last week I bought two front bearing hub assemblies for my Outback. O'Reilly's wanted 192 +tax each for their best. I got TWO Moog units shipped for 186. (Timken was about the same price as moog) from Rockauto. Average shipping is 2-3 days.
I'm as far as I can go getting the engine ready to go in. I've got 1/2 dozen parts at the powder coaters and now waiting on the PS pump. Today I'm gonna clean the huge mess I have in the garage then start on the engine bay cleaning and modifying a few things, like steering. I did pick up a ss double D shaft at the Pate swap meet I think I'm going to need. I may need to remake the shaft firewall support and the custom firewall cover I had made if I need to move where the column exits the firewall.
Wow..that damaged Rockauto pump I dropped off at FedEx at 3 yesterday afternoon...............the doorbell rang at 9 this morning...........it was my replacement part! Shipped overnight from Tenn. Does customer service get any better?!
Well, my daily driver Outback decided it wasn't getting enough attention (and it wasn't). I had to replace the front bearing hub assemblies two weeks ago, and found my rack was leaking. I already knew my PS pump was leaking, but was trying to hold off until after the '57 was back on the road. This past week I also found a CV joint was leaking grease onto the exhaust. So.........got two CV joints, a new rack, new pump, new PS hoses and new brake shoes on the way.
I was doing a trade with my speed shop friend.......his labor for a stack of new sheet metal roofing panels I had bought for the old house fencing and never used. I was going to use that trade and have him put in the engine for the '57. That's mostly being used up on the Subaru now. Maybe gonna set the '57 back some.
I finally got into the engine compartment on the '57. Fixed, I hope, a pesky leak off my master cylinder. Turned out to be a brass metric to 3/16 std. adapter that didn't have enough thread depth. The fitting had about 6 or 7 threads, but was trying to seat on the reversed flare while only engaging about 3 or 4 threads. Not enough to tighten the fitting to seat without stripping the threads. Should have been made with another 1/4" or so of material for added thread engagement, or made from steel. I found one locally at an off-road shop made from steel. I was able to tighten up really well on the fitting, whereas before anything more than a snug would strip the threads.
I've started working on the steering linkage for the rack. I have too much angle on the lower double joint, and very little on the joint at the firewall. I'm going to relocate the steering "column" (3/4 double d) up a few inches higher so it'll put some of the angle on the joint by the firewall, and reduce the angle at the rack. Remember, I don't have a standard steering wheel/column,(97 Mustang). It has another joint close to the steering wheel, so I have that flexibility of changing where it exits the firewall.
Years ago, when I was doing this set-up and getting a lot of help from Bill and Gary, I was posting pics of my mockup, and, after some suggested mods, Bill told me I had it pretty much nailed. Then I messed it up apparently. Well, somewhere along the way to finishing it up, I moved the column from where it exited the firewall to several inches lower. Not sure I even realized it at the time, making firewall bearing support, etc. Well, now what I'm doing is moving it to where it was when I think it was good. Going to have to make a new column support and a new outer cover, and some new 3/4 double d shaft pieces.Will most likely have to modify the lower shaft support. I almost said, I'll leave it, it's not that bad of a "lump", but here I am.
Rich, isn't that what usually happens. as soon as we dive into a project and some little more efforts become apparent, and then, if you do this you might as well do that, and then some more....talking about the steering column and all the other detail work on the 57. I must say you are a brave man, instead of having just the engine quickly replaced by a pro shop, as you originally also thought about. Now you are in the middle of improving your own car again, which already had been a nice driver. Must be love I guess! :002:
I think that is exactly what drives our hobby ! congrats !
Don't forget that the 'sweet spot' may change with the addition of the engine. Since the 'sweet spot' is so fickle or narrow, if I have trouble with it again, I will consider adding a right-angle gear box.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sheppard-M-D-Series-Steering-90-Degree-Integral-Miter-Box-p-n-7551134/303011076196
or
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Steering-Box-90-Degree-Bevel-Gear-Dodge-Ford-Chevy-Box-Van/132908350106
That 90* box is the cat's meow. Don't think I'll have to go to that extent, but I'll keep it in mind.
My "lumpy" steering wasn't that bad after things got worn in, and only noticeable in a parking lot type situation. There was no lumpiness at highway speeds at all. All I'm doing now really is taking some of the excess angle off one end and adding it to the other end where the joint had much less of an angle. I'm in the middle of modifying the firewall support bearing's bracket. Got it cut into pieces, and will reweld it moving the column's 'outlet' up 2". Hopefully this afternoon I'll have a visual on how that works out.
I can't believe it took me 4 days to finish up modifying the steering, but it's in and feels good as far as I can tell sitting still. The tie rods were dropped out, so I was able to turn things with just hooked to the rack. I don't feel any lumpyness at the wheel at all, and I can even turn the linkage by just grabbing the top ujoint at the firewall. Nothing is in there more than snugged because it all has to drop back out for the engine install.
The engine is ready to go in as soon as I finish up engine compartment mods and fixes.
Oops...I'll fix the rotation of that steering linkage pic later...got to run an errand.
Looks real good Rich, the 2nd go round on some things make for a better installation since one generally knows more of the what to look for and what needs a little more tweaking. Good luck getting her back on the road.
Got the engine set down into the car yesterday. Once I figured out how to manipulate the engine and tranny to get everything lining up, it went pretty smooth. Lots of up and down from under the car checking the torque converter bolts as I gradually pulled the engine and tranny together, but it went a lot smoother than I thought it would. About 5 oclock, I was just about to crawl under again to make sure the bolts were coming thru the flex plate ok when my wife told me 3 of the dogs were out of the yard....damn! One came back right away, the second in about 15 minutes, but MY dog........5 1/2 hours later she finally decided to come in. Need to get that dog trained.
Anyway, I was doing this alone, but ended up being not too bad. Just a really hard time with this old body and my breathing getting out from under the car. Btw, trimming the ears on the control arm bracket made a big difference..at one point, I went around the other side to see how close the exhaust manifolds were getting, and it had already cleared...yahoo!...... no threading the engine down past everything. I was able to get most of the bellhousing bolts in with the engine only about 1" out from it's final position. Today, I'll go get some oil and get it in so I can turn the engine and hopefully get that part of it all buttoned up. LOL...not sure I want to try that Mobil One again, I only got 4 miles out of that last oil change.
I've got some stuff to attach before I push the engine back all the way...... downpipes, electrical connectors, tranny dipstick etc.
Good for you Rich, it's refreshing to see some of us old guys still tackle these jobs. I suffer from the same aliments so I understand what it takes..
X2. That is a big job wrestling in an engine on your own with front end still on.
Any engine job with the nose on the car is a lot of up and down doing it alone at any age. Nice job!
I'm glad you were able to install your engine, Good luck with the rest Rich. Thanks for letting us follow along with your progress.
Rich that light at the end of the tunnel is not an on coming train! Keep at it guy, just finished my project. Only took two days for the body to say "THANK YOU" for not having to get down on that hard concrete! I do spend time thinking about what I will need when down. For all you young guys out there, the getting down part is real easy, it is the opposite that the lo bones don't like......:<)
Of course I still have my fingers crossed that all this work and money is not for naught, and that this engine I'm putting in IS actually a good engine. Won't know that for a while yet.
It took me most of yesterday, with all the up and down, to finally finish up the engine to tranny attachment. With the engine forward a few inches, I was able to get to all the bolts. Now I'm working on attaching stuff to the back of the engine so I can push it into it's final resting place.
I had been picking up crap on my tranny dipstick. Yesterday I pulled the tube off the tranny and got it cleaned up. The factory paint on the tube was also inside the tube on the tranny end for a few inches, and that paint was loose/coming off. That's what my dipstick was picking up. Got it wire brushed inside, flushed it real good, put a new o-ring on and now trying to get bolted to the back of the engine. Even that's not cooperating, lol.
Next will be a few electrical connectors after I sort out where all the wiring branches go, then the downpipes. I need to attach the downpipes before I move the engine back, and at the same time guide them onto the H-pipe tubes :tard: I did get my downpipes wrapped with titanium heat shield.
A few pics to follow. The first one is one of the things I discovered during this project........my hood pins were wearing thru. The one in the pic was getting dangerously close to a breaking point (those wire ties are holding up my hydroboost out of the way.)
The engine on hoist pic: after putting a few small scratches in my front fender ( :003:) from the engine swinging as I tried to move it, I figured out I could stabilize it by attaching some ratcheting clamps hooked on to the back of the motor mounts on each side. These not only kept it steady, I was able to tip the front of the engine up instead of down. The strap type lift worked great.......didn't want to use chains and damage my newly powdercoated valve covers. Only problem with it is it's a single point attachment at the lift, so can't use a load leveler.
WOW! You would think the hood pins would be stainless or hardened. Or is this another case of you can't harden steel in a wok? :003:
Haha. I am using the oem hood bumper locations for the pins, and the 3/8-24 thread is hard to find hood pins for. I was surprised yesterday when I removed one to double check the thread size so I could order new ones and realized they were aluminum! Not sure if I knew that when I installed them or even thought about it, but that explained the wearing thru. Anyway, after an hour of searching for stainless, I finally gave up and ordered "steel". They appear to be polished, so not sure what I'll get. I would have called, but my Chinese is a little rusty.
I decided last night I need to set a direction for this reassembly so I can get a test fire of the engine done asap. That means not hooking up any steering components except for the fluid lines, not installing any coolant hoses and radiator stuff, and not fussing with the wiring too much as far as neatness, no driveshaft, no brakes, still on jacks. The hydroboost will just be hanging there, but the fluid lines will be attached, as with the rack. I'm guessing there's not too much residual coolant in the engine. They did run the compression test, but no serpentine belt so the water pump wasn't pumping the engine dry. I'll only crank it with the fuel shut off at first to make sure I'm not missing something, then see if I can fire it up. The tranny will be very low on fluid.
Any thoughts on all that?
Yes, I have added the oil already.
btw, yesterday I was not careful enough with reinstalling the tranny dipstick tube and I bent it right in the area where it goes into the tranny. Couldn't find one online last night, so today is a salvage yard trek. If I can't find one I may order a Lokar made for aode and 4r70w.....what's another 100. :005:
Had a brain fart...........when I start it I'll just remove the serpentine belt, that way none of the pumps/systems will be operational.
Rich, just a thought. If there is not a yoke or a plug in the trans. output, oil may be pumped out, even if the level is low. John
I had pulled the yoke off my driveshaft and installed it there a while back, but a friend did mention to run a loop of hose at the tranny cooling line inlet/outlets .............that is something I hadn't thought of. Thanks
I did order a Lokar dipstick.
I would guess the reason the hood pin shows wear "on the side" is due to an alignment issue. When aligned with the hood hole, the direction that it holds, is up/down not side/side.
I'd say the reason the hood pin shows that much wear is because it's aluminum. There's always gonna be a little tiny unnoticeable side to side hood movement when running down the road.
All the hood pins I've ever seen were chromed steel.
Rich, it's good to see that you have come that far already! Now I personally would not rush the test run. Would not want to run it without coolant, waterpump, and without a yoke/ driveshaft like John already mentioned.
How is the engine going to run correctly without a water temp sensor reading? Even with low trans oil level and in neutral, there must be oil coming from the output shaft w/o the yoke, no? Honestly I would not try any of that. Please take your time to hook everything up properly, even it takes some more days. JMHO. Guenter
Rich I have to agree with Guenter. Ya it is a pain if something goes wrong to undo all the stuff but there is no sense in "trying" to create another issue. Put just water in it. Make sure the transmission is ready to go. Make sure the emergency brake is set or have it on stands for the first fire up. The opportunity for a major "opportunity" is just so overwhelming.....
and I am a firm believer in a check list!
Sorry, was away for a day. I guess my last posts weren't too clear.
Hood pins, agreed, they never would have worn if they were steel. Steel replacements are on order. I was just surprised, or had forgotten, they were aluminum.
When I said "I had pulled the yoke off my driveshaft and installed it there a while back", I was saying I had installed it into the back of the tranny to keep fluid from leaking. Tranny was never drained, btw, just a lot of leakage.
My new water pump has been installed, I was just saying if I removed the serpentine belt, it would be inactive.
What I'm thinking is no different than an engine set up on a test stand. My only purpose for this is to make sure I have an engine that will stay in the car. I'm not looking at this point to see how well it runs, or checking gages other than oil pressure. I'm only looking knocking or blowing smoke, or other major issues that may require the motor to come back out. If this was a known motor, I wouldn't even be considering it. It would be totally unneeded for a known motor, as was the case with my first engine. Probably 30 seconds is all I need. I probably misled when I used the term "test run" If I run it with the serpentine belt, power steering pump will become a time/expense issue. A/C shouldn't be an issue as long as the system is not activated.
I'm more than a few days to get everything totally assembled, 2-3 weeks or more for me. My steering is totally undone as is my brake/hydroboost, rack, tie rods, e brake, etc etc.
The car is on jackstands, and with no driveshaft, it's not going anyplace.
Quote from: Ford Blue blood on 2019-05-23 07:10
Rich I have to agree with Guenter.
Me too. It's not worth the risk of overlooking some minor little thing & finding yourself right back where you started on this.
Sure, it's a lot more work & time but I think it would be better to have a fully warmed up engine in order to check the things you want & need to check.
Even if it didn't have all the electronic controls that your engine has running a cold engine for 30 seconds or slightly longer wouldn't cut it for me.
Rich, I see you have lots of things figured out for your initial test run, but I am still concerned.That engine has been parked for some time and there is no way that you can tell smoke or blow by in 30 seconds. if there has been some oil seapage on valves or slightly sticky rings or whatever you would need a real warm up run to burn that off and out. Let's trust the salvage business and see how everything comes to life with everything properly working and hooked up.
OK, just an update, but first.....no, I haven't tried to start it, lol.
Wiring is done. PS lines are hooked up and reservoir filled. Exhaust is in, tranny dipstick problem is resolved. radiator is in, but I'm waiting on a new ss flexible radiator hose. All the vacuum lines and switches are in. The one I had has pin holes! I had put about a quart of coolant in to test the lower hose for leaks, and it had them. I'm down to about 15 things on my checklist, hopefully today I'll get a few more checked off.
I've got my target date set. I want it to be done a week or two before the July 4th show in Santa Fe. I'll need a front end alignment and I want to get the tranny serviced. I also need to do a lot of local driving before I head on a long roadtrip.
OK, I'm a complete dummy on these newer engines but is there a way you can crank the engine a few times to built oil pressure and get lube circulating to the bearings and valve train without actually starting it. Back in the old days we called it windmilling and always did it to engines that had been setting for a long period of time.
I had intended to just not supply power to the fuel pump while I cranked it prior to actually firing it up. Besides, I assume they put in a temporary oil last month when they did the compression test. Also, I did put Engine Slick on the cam lobes when I had the valve covers off. Of course I couldn't get to the cam bearings, but every bit helps.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-05-31 13:09
I had intended to just not supply power to the fuel pump while I cranked it prior to actually firing it up. Besides, I assume they put in a temporary oil last month when they did the compression test. Also, I did put Engine Slick on the cam lobes when I had the valve covers off. Of course I couldn't get to the cam bearings, but every bit helps.
I don't like to assume, it always seems to bite me when I do :003: Good luck and hope all goes well.
Transmission service is just dropping the pan and changing the filter. Pull the drain plug out of the converter and let it drain. You will do a better job than most of the quick lube places.
I did that 26k miles ago. Lately I've been getting an occasional hard shift, so I thought I'd have my transmission guy look at it.
Got the engine started Friday. Sounded pretty good. It started after only about 5 seconds of cranking after I turned the fuel pump on. It is smoking some, which I expected with all the mystery oil I used on it. Idles really smooth so far. Oil pressure went right to 75, which is where my old engine always was cold. I was bleeding the steering/hydroboost when I developed a leak, so had to stop. The hydroboost was fine before, but I had a little mishap last week that caused the problem, so I'm hoping just a seal replacement will fix that. After I get the hydroboost repaired or replaced, I can reinstall the brake lines/master.
No oil, or water leaks. Didn't have it running long enough to check the check engine light. Took a lot of stress off me hearing the engine!. :burnout:
Congrats, hoping it all goes well!!
I'm sure many of us on your posse, have been waiting for this good news.
Great news, there will be asphalt under those tires soon.
Happy, happy days! Outstanding news! So glad it all came together, always worry that things like what happened to you causes a project to go south and sit.
From the first week in March, when you lost the engine until now is pretty good in my books, and that includes hunting down an engine and sending one back also.
Well done.
Randy
Awesome to hear.
Great news ! :001:
Congrats Rich, really glad to see it all come together and with a happy ending! :003:
I thought I typed a reply earlier..must have forgotten to hit the "post reply" button again.
Thanks guys. Your thoughts are much appreciated.
I may have found enough stuff here here locally to repair my leaky hydroboost. I'll know in an hour or so. I do have a rebuild kit on the way, but they didn't offer express shipping, so it may be a week before it gets here. Hopefully won't need it anyway.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-06-09 19:54
Got the engine started Friday. Sounded pretty good. ....
That's real good news, Rich!
And as often happens one thing leads to another.
(And another & another & ~)In this case you also made some improvements & repairs to other systems that you're probably gonna appreciate a lot when it hits the road again. (http://57fordsforever.com/smf/Smileys/default/thumbsup.gif)
I found the oddball o-rings for the hydroboost at a local hydraulics shop yesterday. None of the auto supply or off-road supply shops had them. The place I ended up at had "every o-ring known to man", lol. Good to know about them, I'll pass that info along to my local car friends. It did fix the leak in my hydroboost, at least the external leak, which was between the hydroboost and the distribution block.
So, got to let the car run for a while.... 10 minutes or so. The first time I installed the hydroboost years ago, it got super hot within a minute or two because of air in the system. Yesterday it never got past warm, so hopefully, it's bled ok. Of course, bleeding at the same time also eliminated the whine from the PS pump. I'll do some more of the lock to lock bleeding today. I did install the master cyl. and brake line connections, today I need to fill and start bleeding. Hopefully I can get the master bled without too much air getting down into the lines. I spent many hours trying to get the system bled when I first built it. Also, turning the steering lock to lock feels smoother than before, so I'm hoping all the work to change the steering linkage paid off.
My engine light never came on yesterday. Hopefully that'll be the case when I get it out for a few miles. I did have my wife start the car while I looked at the vacuum dashpots on the intake control I talked about in earlier posts. They both functioned, so that checks out the electronics and the vacuum lines. Yay!
I did have an issue with the transmission not shifting properly, and a no-start "when in park".........turned out to be another trip under the car to find a loose bolt I never tightened on the linkage.
To fix/adjust today: I think I had mentioned when I first pulled the engine out, I found a loose shaft/bolt on the left lower control arm. What I found out when I reattached the tie rods and rack, is that control arm must have been like that "forever". Reattaching the tie rod to that spindle now makes the wheel want to make a right turn! That's telling me the car was aligned with that control arm not in the correct position. I had a shop change my front springs way back when I was trying to get my ride height correct. With the tight new bushings, I'm wondering if they loosened those bolts and missed tightening one when they were done.
Gotta go to O'Reilly's and pick up lots of fluids.
That is great news. Your car is just going to be all that more satisfying with all those little gremlins sorted out. It may have been an expensive blessing in disguise!!!
Rich it won't be too long now, you are well on your way to grinnin and killin bugs!
Rich
I am very happy for you that you are at this point where you at least got it started . Hopefully you will be able to get rhe job completed and will be driving your car again.
Jay
Rich,
You might try vacuum bleeding you brakes. Works better for me as it makes it a one man job. Harbor freight has a fairly cheep one that I have used.
Thanks Jay.....good to see you back.
Thor.....I have a vacuum bleeder, but didn't need it. Bleeding the booster and the brakes went amazingly quick. The booster is working great, and this time I attacked bleeding the master differently. Unlike regular masters, the oem ones on the hydroboost cannot be bench bled, but there are two bleed valves on them. Figuring there may have not gotten air down in the lines since I only unhooked the master, I made a setup where I had tubing in a jar with brake fluid coming off both bleeders. I opened both up and had my wife press the brake pedal slowly, then closed and released the brake pedal. Only had to do that twice and all the air was out. Doing both at the same time meant I wasn't pushing air into one of the lines while I was bleeding the other.
I did take it out for an 8 mile drive yesterday. I was really worried about the smoke..........it was so bad at first I couldn't see the cars behind me. After about 5 miles it stopped completly. Brakes worked great, steering was much smoother than before. I can't drive it a lot until I get an alignment, but I couldn't bring it to the shop with it smoking like it was either, so that's why I took it out. I do have a few leaks here and there.
My idling issue has gone away, but after 4 miles, my check engine light did come back on. I haven't read the codes it was throwing yet, I suspect same as before.
Just got back from my first trip around the loop............with a smile on my face. I got the car aligned this morning, and as soon as I picked it up I headed out for the first real drive. I drove it 70 miles. :004:
After reconfiguring the steering linkage, the steering for one thing is soooo much better. Much smoother than before. And idling problem is no longer there. It use to oscillate like it had a race cam, lol, I'm gonna miss that part, but I knew it wasn't right. :003: The oil pressure does run about 5 lbs lower than my old engine once warmed up. At highway speeds it's about 45 lbs. ??
I forgot to mention before.......I even have a little more turn on the steering wheel than before. When I first rebuilt the control arms, I noticed there was a place for a steering spindle stop bolt. We talked about that here years ago, and like mine, no one actually had a bolt in there. (Maybe just for power steering equipt cars?). Anyway, I put a bolt in there with a nut under the head, and cranked it all the way in figuring I'd adjust it later. Well, the years went by, and I had forgotten about it mostly. Thought about seeing if it was still there a few times, but never remembered to do that when I was home. Anyway, that bolt was in fact hitting the spindle arm and not letting me turn as much as the rack would allow to the left. Much better in tight spaces now. :003:
Glad to hear Rich, congrats on a job well done.
P.S. 45 psi seems low. I'm assuming a mechanical gauge; what weight oil are you running?
I was always told a good rule of thumb is 10 psi for everything 1000 rpms.
Electronic gage. 10-30 Quaker State blend, planning on doing a seafoam treatment before too long, then I'll change to mobil 1. "Highway speeds"=2000 rpm. It goes to 75 lbs. when it's cold. As stated, my previous engine ran at 50 at highway speed.
Before I did anything, I would check with a mechanical gauge. I thought there was a TSB on 4.6's & 5.4's years ago stating that you should only run 5-20W due to the extremely tight tolerances?
Interesting.....I'll check into it. I don't recall even SEEING 5-20 oil in the stores, but haven't really looked.
All the Fords (new) that I have run 5-W20 except the Shelby (it is 5-W50). My 89 MKVIII was 5-20, the 10 F150 was 5-W20, the 16 with a 5.0 is the same along with the wife's Focus. Readily available in Mobile I.
Thanks for the input, Bill. Not going to matter for quite a while now.
Took care of the thermostat rubbing the power steering pulley. Checked all the fluids and charged the A/C. Did an engine code read, and as expected, they were the same as the previous engine, only alot fewer of them except for one about the fuel pump always running. Hmmm never had that one before. I'm assuming it's with the key "on" but not started, as the computer will shut it down quick if the engine is not running. I'm almost deaf, I can't hear it run, but I'll have someone with ears listen while the key is just on to see if it shuts down after not too long. It did when I wired the car. Cleared all the codes and took it out for a 40 mile run. As with yesterday it ran really well until on my way home thru downtown.
I had my eyes glued to the gages the whole time. At a traffic light I noticed some smoking ( my hood is still off), and the temp gauge was climbing. Sheeeet!! When I got moving again, the temp stopped climbing. I've never had an overheat issue until one time last fall, I need to check to see if the fan is coming on when requested for temp. I know it is when the A/C is on.. Unfortunately, that was only one problem. When I got home, I immediately checked for leaks expecting coolant, but what I saw instead were TWO fluid drips. One was making a puddle from the bottom of the rack, so I guess it blew a seal. The worst one to see however was a steady stream coming from the tranny bellhousing inspection cover. I had put a new front transmission seal in when the engine was out, I guess I must have screwed that up. That one's not getting fixed without the tranny comming out, and I can't do it. Aside from the engine having to have most undone so it can move forward to get to the bellhousing bolts, I don't have the equiptment to handle a tranny removal from under the car. I'm broke and I'm disgusted.
My son lives in Florida and has never seen the car. We were planning on him flying into Amarillo in mid July and we were going to do our first father and son roadtrip up to the Thin Air Nationals in Colorado. Ain't happening.
Don't think any of these 3 problems are related. overheat/rack leak/tranny seal
Dang Rich, sorry to hear the news. The tranny seal is the most troublesome! I suspect the interior would have to come out to access the bell bolts without having to move the engine?
This has totally blown me away. Everything was going so smooth, I had a smile on my face for that last 45 minute drive. Never even suspected anything but an overheat until I got home and was checking for coolant leaks (there were none, btw). So many questions...why the overheat? it was close to 100* yesterday on that drive, I did have the A/C on, my hood was off, but no boiling over, and no leaks, so why the sudden overheat? I suspect a cooling fan issue. I did notice when I was charging the A/C, the fan was coming on, but intermittently. It seemed to be cycling on and off. Shouldn't the fan be on steady when the A/C switch is on? I did install a new water pump....guess I need to verify that it's operational. Did not replace the thermostat.
Why the rack leak at the same time? I did have an issue with my hydroboost, wasn't sure if it was fixed, but after fixing an o-ring leak, it was working fine as far as braking and steering performance, and it was not overeating, which is the normal result of improper bleeding. I don't have a real good understanding of how a hydroboost works, but I believe it just passes the fluid pressure thru it to the rack. I don't know if there is any way a hydroboost can increase the pressure the PS pump puts out, even if malfunctioning. BTW, the PS pump is new also. Just a coincidence the rack decided to blow out at the same time?
Why didn't my transmission seal leak right from the start if I installed it wrong. I put 100 miles on the car before the leak became evident.
Right now I feel like selling my car and buying that Yugo I always wanted.
Good luck finding a Yugo that still runs :003:
How hot does it get? Isn't the normal range between 195 and 210 on these engines? Did you replace the thermostat when you installed the engine? Maybe something broke loose and is causing it to stick? Aren't the fans temp controlled so intermediate running would be normal.
I did not replace the thermostat. And btw, 100* temps are common around here, and was not a cause for overheat in the past. The engine was running about 195, as my old one was. It got up to about 220 pretty quick when I came off the freeway. As mentioned, one time last fall it got up to about 225 in traffic. That was the first time, and that's what has me thinking maybe I have an issue with the fan or fan controllers. The car is set up with a trinary switch, which means the signal to turn on can come from two sources........either the A/C being turned on or engine temp. The A/C requiring the fan to be on, I believe is to pull air thru the condenser, and that's when I'm noticing the intermittent, on/off cycling. The cycling doesn't seem right to me with the A/C on requirement. I did install a new water pump, btw. Need to check that out.........I guess just watch for water circulation when (if?) the thermostat opens. Maybe with some of the powder coating I had done, a sensor is not grounding for the water temp? It may be the one the computer uses to know when to turn the fan on??
So many things swirling around in my head. Is the replacing of parts while things are easy to get to a good idea with the quality of parts we're getting nowadays? Even if they were working fine? My old transmission seal wasn't leaking, but......My old water pump was working, but......my power steering pump was working, but......
On the other hand, I did not replace the thermostat, maybe I should have. I did not replace the rack, maybe I should have. The rack thing is like Deja Vu, btw, When I first built the car, on one of my maiden voyages, I blew the rack out. Replaced that with a rebuilt and never had an issue. Could I be doing something/not doing something that could be causing that?
As mentioned, these are not things I'm expecting answers to, just stuff that's clogging up my brain right now.
more brain clog..maybe I should have replaced the oil pump also. I did notice the hotter the engine got, the lower the oil pressure. Driving out of the downtown at 30mph with the engine hot, the pressure dropped to about 35-40. It did get back up to 45ish on the last few freeway miles home.My thoughts along this line is lower pressure with higher engine temps would be normal because of thinner viscocity? I've also been thinking all along the lower-than-I had-before pressure might be resolved with a good seafoam treatment, and had been planning that for this week. I knew the oil wouldn't be in there long, so I just went with Quaker State high mileage 10/30 stuff.
On the tranny front seal, I had talked to my transmission guy on a seal recommendation. They use National, and that's what I went with. I did check the seal on the lubricated torque converter shaft before I installed it in the tranny, and it seemed a good fit. Anything I could have done wrong assembling the TC that would have damaged the seal? I was very careful sliding it in and lining up the splines with the back and forth rotational until it slid in on the the (3?) locations...2 splines and one flats if I remember correctly. Btw, I never drained the torque convertor, so it's not the drain plug that's loose/leaking.
Just a thought on the thermostat if you need to replace it and I have no knowledge of what they are like on these engines but I would try to get one from FORD before an some aftermarket POS.
The lower oil viscosity used in these newer engines isn't just for lubrication, it's for cooling also, lower viscosity flows more GPM. the faster the oil flows it can do more cooling of internal friction. Just my theory and I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong :003:
verify, verify, verify!!! Stop and take a breath. Verify the coolant temperature with a known good device. The gauge uses a one temperature sensor and the computer uses another.
As Gary said, verify! The 66 Falcon Ranchero I built with a 302EFI always showed high in the green as opposed to middle of the green with the stock 6. Got out my trusty IR heat gun and verified the high green was dead on 195. The temperature sensor that feeds the computer could be bad or not grounded properly. The computer feeds it 5V, the thermistor inside the sensor then varies it's voltage back to the computer to tell it what the engine temperature really is.
Your install of the converter was correct. If it was not your front pump would have gone south prior to getting out of the driveway.
The theory of oil cooling is correct. Any given engine will run a different oil pressure then it's counter part so don't get wrapped around the axel with the pressure difference. As long as you have pressure all is well. The area of concern is has the pressure changed it's behavior at various running conditions.
I suspect the fan controller/heat sensor is the issue. Either the sensor for turning it on (engine temp) is not good or the controller is bad. The cycling on and off with the A/C is how it is supposed to work. As the system pressure builds due to lack of air flow over the condenser the trinary turns on the fan. As the Freon cools and pressure drops the trinary turns the fan off. Sounds like the computer is never turning the fan on for engine temperature control.
Got nothing for you on the rack leak......
Rich, If I were you I would just leave the car well alone now for the weekend or so. you need to cool off, as needs the car. Not all is lost. Looking at your situation from my desk, it is not at all that bad. sure there are some problmes, but there are mainly 3 issues, which is nothing compared to the situation you started from a few months earlier.
It is true that oftentimes new components start trouble these days. I found it also true that mixing brand new with well run in components sometimes doesn't work.
Anyways, you need to get your head clear again dn then start going at each issue and each single faulty part, like Gary stated. Verify. I would leave the transmission leak alone for now. thin transmission oil could also be caused by overheated engine and coolant. or the other way around. trans fluid overheating the coolant ? does your trans have TV cable ? is it properly adjusted ?
I want to think that a transmission removal and seal replacement would be a job that you could locally source out at some point later.
must be possible to drop the rear crossmember and get access to bolts and slip the trans backwards on the lift in a pro shop.
Anyways, good luck Rich. Don't panic ! You'll be back on the road and enjoying the car !
Thanks for all the input guys! Although still depressing, I've got my head cleared now and have a plan that may actually work out to let me get my road trip with my son still done. I am broke from all the expenses I've run into the past few months with both my DD and the '57, but fortunately my wife isn't, and she wants me to do what I can to get the '57 ready for the July 20 Thin Air Nationals in Colorado. So...........
My friend at the speed shop is going to do the tranny pull/new seal/reinstall. I'll be working alongside with him in his shop to speed things along, or slow him down, not sure which, lol.. He does have a lift and a transmission jack. He's got a little over a week's worth of work in his shop now that's already committed, but the car should be in his shop the first week in July. A few days max and it should be good to go. The rack has got to come out for that anyway, so I'll have a new one to install in it's place. We are thinking about reinstalling my old PS pump just in case the new one on there now is putting out too much pressure.........as Guenter said, sometimes issues come up just trying to mate old parts with new.....but there will be a new rack, so not sure if I want to put the old pump on. Kinda the same issue possibly, just reversed.
While I'm waiting to get the car in the shop, I'll start working on the overheat problem and see what I can find. Car has to be running for most of those checks, so today it's off to O'Reilly's for a new supply of fluids. Maybe another bag of speedy-dri, lol.
I just need to keep telling myself this is the same car I had 26K miles of basically trouble free driving, and one screw up isn't gonna change that in the end.
Rich,
I'm glad to hear that you are pressing forward, particularly for the July event with your son. That will make the final result even more satisfying when all the little glitches are corrected.
I had a similar installation with an electric cooling fan, trinary switch for AC and temperature switch for engine cooling on my previous 57 Ford (sold it about a year ago when I found a Skyliner that I had always kind of wanted). On my installation (I'm sure yours is the same) the switches all completed the circuit for the cooling fan in the ground circuit, so the temperature switch, mounted in the intake manifold, had only one terminal and then the circuit was completed when the contact closed to turn on the fan when the temperature reached a preset (I think it was 180-190 F). The one thing this arrangement needs is to have the engine have a good ground connection to the chassis. This might be one thing you could check (probably already have, but worth mentioning) is to have a good ground strap connection from the engine block to chassis. It sounds like your AC trinary switch (closes when the AC head pressures reach a preset pressure, opens when the head pressures are too high, or opens if the pressure is too low indicating an AC refrigerant being too low) is working just fine.
On my installation, I also added an underdash toggle switch so I could manually turn on the cooling fan (I really didn't need to use it because the engine temp switch worked just fine, but I kind of liked to have a manual switch so I could just double check that the fan was working from time to time). It was easy to add and it gave a little "belt and suspenders" feel for me.
Good luck on your project. I am sure you will be back on those Texas highways soon.
Dave
That's on my list to figure out then check. I have two coolant temp outputs. One is a two pole on the back head area and the other is a single pole that is mounted on the front coolant pipe/crossover. I had that pipe powder coated when the engine was apart. I didn't think to do any scrapping of paint when I installed the pipe, I had forgotten about the coolant electrical fitting. When I installed the fitting, I checked the continuity between it and the block and it was good, so I didn't pull it apart to do any scraping. That continuity is one of the things I'll recheck. I'm not sure which of the two fittings feeds what, hopefully there will be a note in the saved wiring instructions.
What I've got so far.......after filling the fluids, I took it out for 15 minutes to get it up to temp. Was about 180ish when I pulled in the driveway, left it running.I popped the radiator cap and the coolant was moving, although not as much as I expected. I took a reading of the coolant at that time, but I think it was just starting to mix with the radiator coolant, so only got about 135* read with the IF. within 10 minutes the gauge was reading 220 (25 hotter than my normal). But seemed to level off there. The fan never came on. (I had put the cap back on because it was starting to geyser). While the gauge was reading 220, I got an identical reading on the outside of the metal coolant pipe, so I'm pretty sure the gauge is accurate. I did flip on the A/C for 5 minutes or so, and the temp started dropping down to about 210 with the fan on.
Odd (to me).....the thermostat housing is in line with the lower radiator outlet. I guess it doesn't matter where you open the flow, just seems odd.
I'm not convinced the thermostat is opening all the way, so that's on my list of things to replace. As Jim suggested, I'll get one from Ford.
Next is chasing down wires and checking continuity, fuses, etc etc.. The front single pole temp. sensor wire is not one that has the Ron Francis labelling, it must be one that I added with Vintage Air instructions.
My transmission did not show any signs of leakage, but I'm not really too hopeful it fixed itself.
I may have misspoke about that 2nd temp sensor being 2 prong.
Very interesting that the tranny didn't leak. Could it be that it isn't the seal? Is there a place where it could spit out fluid if it was a tad over-filled, and then got warm or hot?
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-06-22 13:53
What I've got so far.......after filling the fluids, I took it out for 15 minutes to get it up to temp. Was about 180ish when I pulled in the driveway, left it running.I popped the radiator cap and the coolant was moving, although not as much as I expected. I took a reading of the coolant at that time, but I think it was just starting to mix with the radiator coolant, so only got about 135* read with the IF. within 10 minutes the gauge was reading 220 (25 hotter than my normal). But seemed to level off there. The fan never came on. (I had put the cap back on because it was starting to geyser). While the gauge was reading 220, I got an identical reading on the outside of the metal coolant pipe, so I'm pretty sure the gauge is accurate. I did flip on the A/C for 5 minutes or so, and the temp started dropping down to about 210 with the fan on.
Odd (to me).....the thermostat housing is in line with the lower radiator outlet. I guess it doesn't matter where you open the flow, just seems odd.
I'm not convinced the thermostat is opening all the way, so that's on my list of things to replace. As Jim suggested, I'll get one from Ford.
Next is chasing down wires and checking continuity, fuses, etc etc.. The front single pole temp. sensor wire is not one that has the Ron Francis labelling, it must be one that I added with Vintage Air instructions.
My transmission did not show any signs of leakage, but I'm not really too hopeful it fixed itself.
I may have misspoke about that 2nd temp sensor being 2 prong.
Have faith Rich, stuff seems to fix itself all the time in "Lynnland"!
Les, I'm going to drive it some more tonight (weekly meet on 6th st/old 66), we'll see about the tranny. Overfill is posible, I do have that new Lokar dipstick. I did compare the new dipstick to the old as far as how far it protruded into the pan, and they were very close to the same. When I refilled it, I did go back to almost where I topped it off before, so if it was an overfill, I did it again.
Some more info on the fan situation. The front single pole sensor is wired to the trinary switch. I did do another continuity check from the sensor to the block and it does have continuity. Tomorrow I'll set up a continuity checker with probes so I can make sure there's no breaks in the wire. A new sensor is probably in order, one of the few I haven't replaced (I don't think). LOL, I think occasionally I'm replacing stuff I replaced when I built the car. Gotta get organized.
The rear connector is also a single wire, and the wire from it is marked "sensor ground" and goes to the 60 amp relay for the fan. Can't quite get that wrapped around my head....how the only wire coming off the sensor is a ground wire?? Maybe I need to take a second look. I know where that leads to is the 2 sensors located under the intake manifold, and I know those had two leads each........not sure offhand what happened to the rest of the wires.....maybe I missed connecting something, more likely I did connect them and can't see it now. So many wires stuffed in back there. Anyway, it sure helps to talk this stuff out.
Monday I think I'll call Ron Francis and find out if there is anything relay or fuse wise that is seperate in regards to the A/C request and engine temp request. I checked the smaller fuses on the chassis wiring panel, and the 60 amp job in the relay harness.
What are your opinions on wiring the fan to be always on / thru a switch? My friend here doesn't like that idea..says no need to be always on, and if you switch it, you could forget to turn it on. It does draw 60 amps, so I can sure understand the thinking behind not having it on all the time.
So, in a nutshell, so far I'm planning on replacing the thermostat and the front temp sensor, and I am looking for other stuff that may need replacing while the coolant is drained.
Another thought/question.......the transmission cooling lines that I replaced. I have the Auto City Classic radiator with the cooling tank for the tranny. Are there specific in and outs? Can they be installed backwards at the radiator? I assumed it made no difference, but.............
Regarding the geyser, thats a sign of air still trapped in the system which will cause hot spots and heating. The thermostat position is baffling to me unless this is a reverse flow system? This new modern stuff makes me crazy :003:
hmmmmm.just dumped a reply to that. I've been looking at this cooling system for 5 years now trying to figure it out. Reverse flow? Don't have a clue. As previously mentioned, my thoughts on the thermostat location were simply...does it matter where in the loop you close the circulation off? I wouldn't think so. I would think closing the coolant off before the radiator would have the same result as closing it off from leaving the radiator. I did read somewhere in the Lincoln shop manual that the system is designed to never close the flow entirely.
There is an air bleed cap on the coolant pipes that I had open when I filled 'er up, but maybe I didn't keep it open long enough, or go back and reopen after filling and running. I'll try and bleed it again. Of course that doesn't fix the no-fan issue, but doesn't help.
I'd sure like to see a flow diagram on how coolant moves through the system.
I have a dual fan controlled by Fitech fuel injection. I have it set for one fan to come on at 180, second fan at 190. It is also wired to Vintage Air Gen IV and it's trinary switch.
Rich, the cooler lines in the radiator don't care which is in or out. That "cooler" is just a tube that loops once maybe twice in the lower tank.
Ford typically in your electronic system outputs grounds to various components needed to make the engine happy. Example, the injectors had 5V on them at "key on run" and the computer sends a ground to it to let gas in the appropriate cylinder
Not having all the air out of the system can give a bunch of weird indications. The temp sensors for the computer do not like air. Might be the whole problem with the cooling system.
If you have access to a lift put the car up on it with the engine running and the transmission in low and look for the leak. Could be as suggested coming out of an unexpected place.
Rich,
It sounds like you are getting really close to solving your startup issues (the transmission drying up would sure be a nice surprise). The cooling fan circuit is typically controlled by a single relay that has multiple connections to run its control circuit. The relay control circuit has a positive terminal that is typically powered only when the ignition is on, and a ground terminal that can connect to several switches (in this case, your trinary switch for the AC head pressure, and the two engine temp switches). Once any of those switches closes, the connection is made to ground and the relay is activated, closing the high amperage circuit to drive the fan. The high amperage circuit is "always hot", typically protected by a circuit breaker.
We know that your relay is wired correctly and works because it comes on when you run the AC. One easy check for your engine wiring to the relay (to be sure that the ground circuit of the relay control is complete when the temp switches close) is to just pull the wire off one of the temp switches and ground it to the engine block. It should start the fan by closing the circuit to the relay control ground. You should be able to do this with just the key in the on position and engine not running. It might be one way to troubleshoot the wiring between the engine and cooling fan relay.
Good Luck,
Dave
Bill. I thought that was the case with the tranny cooler, but just eliminating possibilities. Didn't realize the senders were just providing a ground, so that is really really helpful info. Awesome info from both of you, Bill and Dave. Thanks. That's why we come here.
Les's statement about a possible transmission overfill might be exactly what happened. I'm going to find out from my transmission shop where it would leak from if it was an overfill. After 3 short trips yesterday and no visible tranny leakage, I took it out this morning for a 60 mile trip around the loop. I stopped about every 15 minutes to check, and never saw a drop coming from the inspection plate area.! Fan-freaking-tastic. I checked the fluid level on the dipstick several times and when I got home, and it was still where it was before I left. Also, it was only in the 70's, but the car never got past 195, so I'm pretty sure that air lock was the initial cause of the heating -up. Of course that doesn't fix the fan not coming on.
Dave, I thought I remembered having a circuit breaker on my little A/C relay panel, but I actually have a 60 AMP fuse. Checked it yesterday.
So...I know thinking is dangerous, but I was not thinking along the lines of the trinary switch handling BOTH requests, which it obviously must because one of the temperature senders is wired directly to the trinary. Following that idea, I think that's telling me THAT sender/wire/connection would be the faulty one if there is a faulty one. No need for the schematics to try and figure out which sender was wired to what. I already knew, just wasn't seeing it.
OK.my brain wanders too much. There I was assuming the trinary switch handled the A/C request, when it may be only handling the engine temp request. When required when the A/C is on, it may be simply a function of the A/C on/off switch.
Gotta like it when odd stuff starts repairing itself. :003:
Rich,
I think the wire from one of the engine temp switches to the trinary switch is really just a convenient way to route the wiring to the relay ground terminal. All of the wires to the relay ground terminal would essentially be on the same circuit and if any one of the switches closes, it would provide the path to ground for the relay to close.
The trinary switch for the AC head pressure is a pressure switch and not really related to engine temperature. The wire from the engine temp switch is just connected at the terminal for the trinary switch to provide a path to ground at the engine block if the temp switch closes. If the AC head pressures go up (as they do when you turn on the AC and the cooling fan is not running), then the trinary switch closes at a preset pressure and your relay sees a ground connection and closes. The two switches are really not working together, they just share a common wire from the trinary switch to the relay ground.
The wiring for these can be confusing but it sure seems like there is a problem between your temp switches and a ground connection to complete the circuit for the relay. Does your engine block have a ground wire connected directly to the battery (like the original Y-Blocks)? It would be interesting to get a continuity check between the engine block and the negative battery terminal just for a quick check.
Good luck (getting really close now)
Dave
I should have known it wouldn't be that simple, lol..
It does,I've got the Ron Francis #1 battery cable set. The battery ground is connected to the block at one of the bellhousing bolts really close to the starter I'll double check it though. I've got one from engine to frame and body to frame. Almost all my car is wired as though it was a fiberglass car...wired grounds on most electrical stuff.
I also need to ground one sender wire to the block as you sugested to see if that turns the fan on with key on.
The transmission vent is a little tin mushroom shaped cap on the upper rear of the main case just in front of the tail housing joint. If over filled or over heated, oil blows out and would appear in the cross member area and back. Over fill can also push oil out the fill/dipstick tube. Over heating the engine will also over heat the transmission. Over heating or over filling should not come out of the bell housing. On most of my transmission builds, I remove the tin vent cap, drill and tap for pipe thread, and install a steel tubing drain down the side of the transmission and away from the hot headers and/or exhaust.
PIC: small, vertical drain tube for transmission vent.
There is continuity between the block and neg post on the battery. Looking at my wiring instructions, the other sensor coming off the coolant pipe is labeled engine coolant sensor. It is 2 wires, green and grey. This is where I may lose you guys, because both those wires feed back to the Televork panel (engine>computer patch panel). There is continuity between that sensor body and the block.
Any guess as to how that 2 wire "sensor" works. Could it be the sensor is just closing the loop between the two wires when it gets "too hot"? I'm wondering if I could make a jumper to do the same to see if it turns the fan on......
Rich,
Now you have lost me. Your wiring harness and engine connections are completely different than what I had on my car and my advice is like trying to apply a 1957 fix to a 1990 era wiring harness.
Apparently your trinary switch is working like we think it should (providing a ground to the cooling fan relay), and the wire from one of your engine switches to that switch seems to be related to providing a ground. If that temperature switch has a single wire connection, then it would seem that it should be grounding when the temperature reaches its preset limit. I sure don't know what the 2 wire temperature switch going to your control device would be doing or how to troubleshoot it.
Sorry for the misdirection,
Dave
Not a misdirection at all.....you got me thinking and the basics are still there. You're input is greatly appreciated. I did add a last question to my previous post. I've rarely had to call Ron Francis, but this seems like a good time. They made my engine harness, chassis harness, and a number of small (but expensive) things like the fan relay kit, battery cables, etc etc.
That one wire to the trinary switch is a Vintage Air thing, btw, notthing to do with the engine harness. The two wire is part of the engine harness, so it would make sense that is the one that controls the fan on at engine temp. The engine harness has no way of knowing that a A/C unit is going to be added, so the engine harness would have to take care of the fan........not as I had thought earlier.
Am I making sense? I'll find out the purpose of the two wire as opposed to just the single wire closing ground.
Rich,
I'm thinking that the 2 wire temperature switch might part of your engine controls (I had completely forgotten that you have a more modern engine when I was sending all of my suggestions). If you have 2 temperature switches, I would guess that the switch with the single wire connection (especially if that is the one that connects to the terminal on the trinary switch wire) that would be the switch related to the cooling fan. I don't think there would be a need for more than one switch for the cooling fan, so I'm supposing that the 2 wire switch "talks" to your engine controller regarding fuel/air mixture or fuel injection modifications relative to engine temperature.
Would it be possible to jump from the single wire switch to engine block just to see if the fan would start up? That's about the only suggestion I would try first.
Best of Luck,
Dave
I did try that (key on, but not in run?)....nothing happened.....unless there is a delayed start I didn't compensate for.
Would it be worth a try to do the same jumper test with the engine running? The controls on that newer engine might be smart enough to not work unless the engine is actually running. If that fails, I am running out of suggestions. It sure seems like it should work.
We're thinking alike.............That's exactly the case.....earlier I checked the fan on A/C request, and would not turn on in either on or run key positions. Has to have engine running, and there is about a 15 second delay.......I'll keep that in mind when I try grounding a sender wire.. I'll try again tomorrow grounding the single pole wire to the block with the engine running.....
I keep coming up with new issues. Tonight the engine started howling at me more so than it had a few times earlier this week. Not sure where it's coming from, but if it does it again tomorrow, I'll pull the serpentine belt to at least determine if it's something belt driven. I'm suspecting the new water pump I put on. It goes away if I hit the gas. :005:
I'm gonna watch a ball game.
Rich that sensor with the two wires is for the computer. The gray wire is reference V from the computer, the green is the signal from the sensor to tell the computer the status of engine temperature. Don't ground either of them!
My earlier reference to the computer providing grounds was with respect to commands it gives to the injectors, solenoids for EGR, gas tank venting, compressor on/off, fuel pump control, all that stuff.
All the inputs to the computer to tell it the status of cam timing, crank position, barometric pressure, RPM, throttle position, air temperature into the engine, air flow into the engine, exhaust gas O2 levels are all fed a reference voltage, pretty sure it is 5V in your system, irrespective, that reference voltage is the basis for all the measurements that input the computer and there by control the engine.
If I remember correctly in the MKVIII the computer tells a fan control box to turn on one or both of the fans. I do know the computer turns off the A/C when at wide open throttle and RPMs above 3500 (I think). It also turns on one fan when the A/C is on and head pressure gets to a preset level.
I am not sure how RF modifies the fan controls but I am 100% positive that the computer does not provide power to the fans, it controls a relay to power the fan/s. It could well be that there are separate relays for the A/C and engine temperature control?
Just went to his instruction manual for the system. Did not see any instructions for wiring up a fan control circuit. Did see all the fan control failure codes. How are your fans wired? Off the control panel or a separate sub system?
Lastly are there any codes dealing with engine temperature or fan control?
Thanks Bill........First, let me say after Thursday's 60 mile run and the car never getting over 195, I'm not sure how long I've been without a fan! Maybe never had one operational. Apparently the car can run at length (probably all winter) without a fan as long as there aren't other circumstances involved. It was 2 years before the car ever got over 200, and that was sitting in traffic over an hour on a hot day last September in Fort Worth.
Ron Francis supplied the connector to the Mark VIII fan. I'll check the wiring imprints and instructions to see if it fed the Chassis wiring harness or the engine harness. Some of that stuff intermingled between harnesses. The Express chassis harness did have a built in fan relay and fuses, but only 30 amps, so I had to add a 60 amp relay kit. I'm 95% sure the fan connector was supplied with the Express chassis harness. Those are custom made to fit a specific build whereas the MK-93 engine harness is pretty much unaltered from one kit to another.
The fan control box you mentioned. One of the codes thrown, OBD 1 code 587, now and before, "no communication problem between pcm and vcrm(variable control relay module). That code and an egr code have always been thrown. I'm pretty sure the VCRM is the "fan control box" you mentioned. You probably just hit the nail on the head, and was one of the main reasons I was going to call Ron Francis today. The VCRM is not part of the controls transferred from the donor car. There was no "Bag 78..VCRM" in my kit, and the instructions were ambiquous in stating "........and other functions not used in a aftermarket application".
Way back when I was wiring the car I called to confirm/inquire about that, and they said it was not needed for my application. I'll follow up on that again.
I haven't called them yet, but just to add...........the VCRM was never on my list of needed things to remove from the donor car. I believe the conversation with Ron Francis tech went something like....the VCRM controls many things on the Mark VIII that are not used in a conversion, and if the VCRM were installed, the computer would would start throwing codes for many missing signals/systems requiring the computer to be reprogrammed.
195 degrees is below the normal operating temp, I believe somewhere I read that some functions are not turned on by the computer until the car reaches it's normal operating temp of 204(?). I'm not sure at what temperature the system would want to turn the fans on, I'm guessing not before it reached it's "norm". Could it be possible it wouldn't even want to turn it on at my high point of 225?
BTW, my fan is just a single fan, but I believe 2 speed.
I called Ron Francis. They confirmed the VCRM has been deleted from their kit and the only way to delete the code is to have the computer reprogrammed. Second, they confirmed their harness controls the engine temp request, it's the vintage air wiring that controls the A/C.
The front 2 wire coolant temp sensor is for fuel injection control info...nothing to do with the fan. The other front sensor is vintage air. What I'm looking for is a single wire sensor that has a green wire marked sensor ground. He told me to find it and provide a ground to see if the fan turns on. depending on what happens, he may have me check the sensor by testing to see at what temp it opens up.
While out running errands, I stopped by to talk with my transmission guy. Have a new theory now. He said if I hadn't installed the front seal correctly, it would leak steadily, not intermittently, and most probably from the first time I started the engine. I asked about an overfill. The bleed valve for my tranny is on the back topside of the tranny..no way it would leak at the front from an overfill. His theory: a possible cracked torque convertor. If I stopped the car with the crack at the bottom, it would leak, with the crack at the top..no leak. He suggests to keep driving it and if it leaks again, mark the crankcase pulley, then get it rotated 180 to see if it stops. Makes sense, I hope his theory is not correct.
Rich the sight I looked at had the low speed fan coming on a 205 and the high speed at 220. Not sure if that applies to the MK VIII, the t-stat in my MK was a 205.
Good info, thanks.......I'll add the two speed to my questions for the Ron Francis tech guy when he comes back from lunch. Mine just seems to go right to lift-off stage, lol.
Found the sensor ground wire/sensor he had me look for, made a ground jumper wire. as soon as I turned the key on the fan came on! I shouldn't be assuming things, but I can't help but think that's saying whatever problem it is, it's in that sensor....either not functioning or not operating at a low enough "turn-on" speed.
With everything that's happened, I have to revisit my thoughts about having a switch for the fan, as Dave does. I'm obviously not aware when or if my fan is running when on "automatic", So, if it stopped working, how would I know? Yeah, my deaf ears can hear it running in the garage, but on a highway in traffic?? not.
I'm more likely to be aware of a potential heat problem due to ambient temps or traffic, etc, and manually turn the fan on, so I don't think forgetting to turn it on would be an issue due to the fact I apparently don't need it most the time. It would be ideal of course to get the intended system working and have the manual turn-on as an option. I'm thinking that would be easy as splicing in a switched ground wire to their "sensor ground"
OK......apparently I have a bad sensor or connector. I'm having them send new ones. That should take care of the fan issue, other than adding the switch.
I have to get into the cooling system to replace a leaking (too-small) o-ring on a coolant pipe, so I'll wait for the new sensor from RF before I drain the system. He was going to have me pull the old sensor and do a boilng water test, but if I did that, I'd have to wait for the replacement to come in. I'd rather just replace the old with the new while I'm doing it and be finished with it.
My fan is 2 speed, but the way it's wired is high speed only. To use both speeds I'd have to rewire the connector and wiring and add a second relay. The sensor is set to ground out/turn the fan on at 205*, which my engine under normal conditions never gets to. I could order a lower temp sensor that starts the fan at 176*, but that would keep the fan running all the time.
Keith @ RF oddly enough suggested I may want to put in a toggle switch exactly the way I had thought above. Gonna do it. My only question there is..............I'll be switching ground, I'd like an indicator light, so I'm guessing it would have to be a separate light with the ground wire the same wire I'm switching with the toggle?
You could wire the bulb to the output of the relay, the line that supplies power to the fan and of course ground the bulb as any indicator would be.
Where is the relay located and does it wire to the junction panel? If it is under the dash just hook the bulb to that terminal. Fan turns on-bulb lights.
The fan relay is next to the e brake on the firewall. I did another short trip and no transmission leak. I want the light to be lit only when the toggle switch is providing ground. If I wired it from power off the relay, wouldn't the light be on even if the fan is running from A/C request?
Rich,
I am so glad you are getting things worked out and much closer to getting that Ford on the road. I kind of liked the manual toggle switch on the car with the electric fan, even though when things are working correctly and you get a working temperature switch, you probably won't need to use it often.
You could wire the switch and light so that the light would only be activated when the toggle switch was in the "on" position. It would require a diode to be installed in the wire between the switch and the relay ground terminal to allow current to flow toward the switch, then you would wire the indicator light ground wire to connect between the diode and the switch. That way, the light would only light when the switch was turned on. There might be times when you would turn off the switch and the fan would still be running (if the temperature switch was closed) but you would have the light to remind you to turn off the switch. The control circuit of the relay is a pretty low amperage requirement, so the diode should work okay in that type of circuit. You would provide power to the indicator light from a keyed circuit so it would only be on when the key is on.
Let me know if there are questions on the circuit.
Dave
Yes, forgot that when the sensor was actually working it would also ground the "out" side of the switch, turning the light on even though the switch was off.
Diode...........one of those one-way thingies if I remember correctly? A diode in the line would prevent the ground from travelling up the wire, only let it down the wire? The diodes work for grounds as well as powered?
Rich,
I think the diode should work in the ground circuit as it prevents current flow in one direction and allows it in the opposite direction. I have never used a diode in the ground circuit (that I can remember, anyway) but I believe it should block flow backwards in the circuit that would cause the indicator light to go on if the temperature switch closed, but should allow current to flow toward the toggle switch when the toggle switch was closed, causing the fan relay to activate as well as the indicator light. It would be fairly easy to test (if I had a spare diode sitting around, I would sure give it a try with an indicator bulb). It might be nice to have an indicator light that goes on whenever the fan is on, but I can see why you would want to know which position the toggle switch is in.
Dave
Rich,
I've been thinking about this circuit some more and I think a better solution than the diode in the ground circuit (might work, but from what I can read on diodes, they are more commonly used in the positive circuits) would be to use a DPDT toggle switch (double pole, double throw). In this way, you could completely isolate the indicator light from the ground feed for the relay. The one set of contacts on the DPDT switch could complete the ground circuit for the fan relay, and the other set of contacts could supply a switched power feed to the indicator light (which would now have its own ground).
Can't wait to hear more progress on your project. Thanks for sharing all of your trials and tribulations (and victories).
Dave
Rich,
Oops, make that a DPST switch (double pole, single throw). The DPDT switch has 6 contacts and you need 4 contacts.
Something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Baomain-Toggle-position-mounting-terminal/dp/B01MRV5T5R/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=double+pole+single+throw+switch&qid=1561459169&s=gateway&sr=8-5
Good Luck,
Dave
Thanks for all the time you put into this.......much appreciated. I made note of the dpst switch you came up with, looks like a good way to go. A little wrinkle...........I've been using button rocker switches on my console, was hoping to go that route with a matching switch, but not 100% necessary, I could put the dpst toggle under the dash instead of on my console. Maybe they make dpst button switches, and yes, the ones I'm using have built in led's, but you can only see the light if your looking for it.
I did find this: https://www.delcity.net/store/Rectangular-Round-Hole-Rockers/p_788854.h_788875
In an attempt to use a switch that matches what I'm already using, I'm going to persue the idea of the diode. I talked to an electronics shop this morning and he thinks the diode will work on a ground, and he has some in stock. I'll pick up a couple for testing, and find out about the directional markings on them.
Sounds good, Rich. I think the diode will work also and it might be a simpler way to go with the wiring. If it doesn't work, you always have a fall back plan.
Next chapter.........I think I mentioned before my engine making an occasional screeching noise that seemed to be getting worse. It was. I had the car at my friend's shop this morning, it took him about 2 minutes to isolate it. It turned out to be the belt tensioner. Have a new one on order.
When I got the car home, I looked underneath again, and low and behold, there's a stream of fluid coming out from the drain spout on the bellhousing inspection plate. This time the car was in the garage. When I had the first stream it was on our asphalt driveway. Anyway, I laid there for 3 or 4 minutes making sure it was actually coming out from the bellhousing and not just from splashing. Then I noticed the fluid seemed to be yellowish, not red. I put a cup under there, and it turned out to be coolant. Double checked the tranny fluid. Still full, not overfull, clear, not milky. So at the moment I was sorta happy it wasn't tranny fluid, and there didn't seem to be a problem with the radiator/tranny cooler leaking into the fluid lines. So, how the heck was the coolant getting inside the bellhousing. Then I realized the leaky front coolant pipe I didn't think was too bad, sat over the valley between the heads, and that's where the coolant was going, leaking out at the back end right over the bellhousing/engine join line.
I realized at that point, I never had a tranny leak. Being on the black asphalt, I couldn't tell that it wasn't red. I figure the reason the tranny fluid level was down after that run was the torque converter filling back up from fluid loss. Anyway, all those things combined to lead me in the wrong direction. Oddly enough, today was a huge relief, even though I realized all the stress in the past 5 days was my fault for misdiagnosing the problem.
left to do: fix leaky coolant pipe, replace coolant sensor, replace rack, and replace belt tensioner. Now that I don't have to drive the car looking for a tranny leak, I'll start taking things apart while I'm waiting on parts. I may get to do the July4 Santa Fe show after all.
these are actually good news Rich ! Glad you didn't give up 5 days earlier or so. If an engine is acting stubbornly, it just needs a more stubborn mechanic :003:
So....There is no transmission leak.
That's a blessing and a huge relief to hear that good news.
Good to see you posting again Jay, Get your computer fixed?
My rack came in yesterday, so started pulling the old one out, but stopped so I could..................
Get the leaking coolant pipe pulled out so I could get the right size o-rings and have them for the weekend. Found them at the hydraulic repair shop I found my hydroboost o-rings at.Started to reassemble, but stopped so I could.............
Work on the final sealing of my front garage door. It had a concrete walkway right at the front overhead door that sloped down into the garage! every time it rained, water would seep in. Not like the river I had when I still had a back overhead door, but enough to be annoying. Can't believe this house went soooo many years by previous owners without getting the garage problem fixed.I didn't want to pour a buildup layer of top coating because that stuff never lasts. What I did come up with I think will work pretty well. I bought a 4' x 6' x 3/4 dense rubber sheet made for horse stalls. Used a jig saw to cut it into 12" wide strips and glued them to the area under the overhead door. I needed to seal around the edges, but the it takes a while to set up so I didn't want to do it on a day the '57 might want to take me for a ride. Today was a good day, got that done, and hopefully a totally dry garage in the future.
Update........got all the coolant leaks taken care of.
Replaced the squeaky idle pulley on the serpentine system. Engine sounds better when it's not squealing!
Replaced the coolant temp. sensor with a new one from Ron Francis.
Got the rack mounted and plummed, but having issues. I can't get one of the banjo fittings to stop dripping. Some racks have machined surfaces at the ports so you can use fittings with crush washers, which is what the banjo fittings use. The ACDelco rack did not appear to have those machined surfaces, but when I filed the paint off, it actually looked very good, so I did a careful filing job and went with my fingers crossed. Regardless of how smooth and flat the surface is, the issue of course is how perpendicular that surface is to the machined port. One seemed to have sealed, the return line is dripping though. It could be the AN fitting, so I may pull it tonight and replace the internal bushing (they call them olives) and see if that helps. If it doesn't, I'll order non banjo fittings that use the o-rings instead of crush washers.
I think what's causing the other issue I'm having with the rack may be because of the leaky fitting, possibly not letting me get a good bleed(?). While trying to turn the steering wheel lock to lock to do the self bleed, the rack is shaking/oscilating back and forth to the point you can see it in the wheels.
I'm going to lower the car down off the stands to get more weight on the front tires.
BTW, When that started, I wondered if there was any way I could have reversed the pressure and return lines. I double checked just to make sure and they are correct.
The hydroboost is not heating up like it has in the past when the system was not bled.
Dropped it down and the oscillating went away. I think I read somewhere here not to do the lock to lock bleeding with the wheels hangind down. I forgot that, but that solved the problem. Took it out for 20 miles. Not much difference in the 2 1/2 turn vs. 3 turn. Only slightly less responsive, but I suspect may have a better road feel at 70-80 mph. Other than my one fitting dripping, no leaks, no overheating, quieter. Almost got my issues resolved. I'll take it out for 60 miles around the loop tomorrow after some more lock to lock bleeding. The hydroboost did get up to 131.
Hurrah, soon we'll be seeing beautiful Texan scenery with your gorgeous Custom out in the wild ! congrats !
Just curious, are you using aluminum crush washers? If so, perhaps a change to nylon crush washers might stop the fluid leak.
It might.thanks for the suggestion. Yes, aluminum. But, I already ordered the o-ring style straight AN to metric adapters from Jegs, along with 90* AN fittings. These two are a real pain to get to, so I only want to do it once. The banjo fittings are nice, but what I'm ordering will work on either style I could end up with in the future.
A note on Cardone racks vs ACDelco. What I had on was a Cardone. The ACDelco I just got came with a mishaped/damaged outer hard fluid line. It wasn't shipping damage because it had two places that were hit with something hard and sharp, and there was no damage to the shipping box. The line was out of shape so bad, the mounting rubber collar and clamp were no where close to being able to fit on. No biggie, though, I just took that line off my removed rack and swaped them. I did notice when I took that line off the new "rebuilt" unit, the old oring was still on it....in pieces!
Took the car out for 80 miles or so. Mid 90's temperature. On the road, it held at 195, but stopping it would start to creep over 200, but this time the fan came on and kept it at 205, which is suppose to be the normal operating temperature. So,so far, it looks like all my issues are resolved except my leaky fittings. While I'm waiting for them, I'll see if I can get the switch and indicator light for the fan wired in.
Started the switch/light wiring with the diode yesterday. Got about 1/2 done when I was getting some bad continuity readings, so pulled it all out to refigure, only to discover I had used the wrong terminal on the switch, and had a faulty circuit tester. The spring that pushes against the batteries was broke, so everytime I held it upright, I'd get a bad reading because the batteries lost contact. Put all the grounding wiring as originally planned back in, fixed the circuit tester. When I get my butt going this morning, I'll see if it turns the fan on.
Man, am I feeling really dumb. As stated in the prior post, I'm trying to get the wiring done for the manual turn-on of the cooling fan. I've got everything hooked up and checked out with the continuity checker and all the splices, joints, etc. proved out. It doesn't work. After beating my head against the wall for a while, I have come to the conclusion that I have made a wrong assumption about my continuity checker. My household wiring continuity checker has a positive and negative identified probes on it, so I know which way the current is flowing. Under normal situations which way the current is flowing on a continuity checker wouldn't matter at all. But we all know most of the time, my situations somehow never end up being normal. Why does the direction of the current flow matter in my case? The diode. The normal penlight style tool I'm using has the probe on the battery/light case and a wire with aligator clamp I was assuming was ground.
Everything that's happening would indicate I installed the diode in the wrong direction. The only way that could be would happen if the current flow out the continuity checker is actually out the wire, and not the probe end as I had assumed. Any of you electrical gurus know?
The reason I'm thinking the diode is in backwards, contrary to what I had been thinking with the continuity checker, is if I run a jumper wire from the switch to the engine heat sensor, the switch will activate the fan. Moving that jumper wire down the line to just before the diode, it still works, confirming good joins to that point. Once I move the jumper past the diode, it stops working. The continuity checks tell me I have good joins at the diode (hard to do), so my next assumption as mentioned above, is the diode is in backwards and I've been misusing the continuity checker.
I've got a switched fan and indicator light. The diode was in backwards. Confirms what I later suspected about the direction of current flow on my continuity tester going thru the wire first.
Great news, Rich. Persistence really pays off!!
Dave
Quote from: oldave57 on 2019-07-03 20:48
Great news, Rich. Persistence really pays off!!
Dave
Yup, been there, done that! After a little belly button pondering the light comes on....:<)
Got my rack fitting leak fixed, she's ready for a road trip. I've put 350 miles on the replacement engine. Now all I need to do is..............
get some money, lol.
Actually, my hood is still off. I'm pondering making some sheet metal stuff for the area between the grille/nosepiece and the core support to force more air thru the A/C condenser. Anybody done that?
I have thought about doing that as well. There is not a lot of room between the radiator support and the hood (?), not sure about how effective that would be. I actually think a little work under and behind the radiator might be more effective. Curious about your results if you decide to do it.
What I was thinking for the "main panel" would be a sheet metal (ss or alum?) panel attached to the top of the core support going forward and attaching to the backside of the nosepiece. Visualize a strip cut from the front of another hood's skin. Then I'd need to figure if that would be enough or if I needed something to enclose the edges of the condenser. That would be really intricate I would think for it to look right. Lots of visability there thru the grille, so would be very time consuming to do it up pretty.
That would help to direct the air flow thru the condenser. A car guy I talked to locally here thinks that's why my A/C isn't as cold as it is.
On the other hand, my engine generates tons of heat externally, and I'm not sure I want to block off that air that does go between the core support and the hood. I'm sure that air helps to flush out the engine compartment heat, which in turn keeps the need for A/C minimized. seems like there's lots of pros and cons.
BTW, speaking of having no hood right now.....I'm thinking maybe that's the reason this engine is running about 5-10 degrees hotter than my previous engine. With the hood off, there probably is less air going thru the radiator to cool the coolant since it has an easier escape route. No hood probably keeps the motor cooler externally, but not the case internally.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-07-06 12:11...BTW, speaking of having no hood right now.....
No hood? Ha! That reminded me of something I hadn't thought of in years.
June of 1967 I was in the service & our squadron had just come back from "Beautiful Southeast Asia". I took leave, came home & and got married.
Our old airplanes were being phased out by the Navy & our squadron was to move from North Island/San Deigo to Moffet Field, about 10 miles up 101 from San Jose/Santa Clara. We were gonna get trained into our fancy new & different planes before our next deployment.
I now had a wife coming down soon & needed a car. I had next to no money. Bought a real cheap POS early Falcon from from some kinda sketchy lookin' auto repair shop. It had no hood.
At last I took off on the way north. It was hot. Real hot!
I couldn't figure out why the vents weren't letting in any air since they were clearly open. I roasted for the 450 miles or so to Salinas where I stopped to eat. The cafe was right next to a wrecking yard & I found a hood. Same color & cheap too! Put the hood on right there. The below windshield vents now worked! :003:
I tried but I don't think I was ever able to get that Falcon registered in my name. Californias DMV rules were a lot different than the ones in Alaska. : (
"Where has this car been in the last xx months?"Huh?
The Falcon blew up one night on the freeway on my drive from San Jose to Moffet. Got it back to our apartment somehow & parked it on the street. I got lucky & found a big black '62 Galaxie with a 406 & 4 speed for a real good price & one day the Falcon was just gone.
Sorry for the off topic hijack, Rich & all. (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/TomIII/smilies/hide.gif)
That '62 was a great car, I did not register it in California! :002:
Still have it's plates.
great story Tom ! :001:
I don't know about hood vs no hood, I ran without a hood for the first week after I installed the new engine and didn't notice any temp difference between the two. I remember when I installed an aftermarket AC in my truck there was a note about a critical dimension between the condenser and radiator. I can't remember exactly what is was but I think it was close, like not more then a 1/4 inch or the air flow to the radiator gets upset?
Mine's more than an inch. Glad you brought that up,Jim. I may have a look to see how much work to move it in some as long as I can do it with existing hoses and fittings.
Quote from: RICH MUISE on 2019-07-07 08:30
Mine's more than an inch. Glad you brought that up,Jim. I may have a look to see how much work to move it in some as long as I can do it with existing hoses and fittings.
I'm sure you can research that somewhere, I'm just going from what I barely remember from 1990.
If I recall Vintage Air wanted mine with about .5" clearance.
Quote from: fdlrc on 2019-07-07 13:48
If I recall Vintage Air wanted mine with about .5" clearance.
Thats more accurate then my memory, I went out today and measured mine and it is at .5".
Rained most everywhere around here Saturday, cleared up Sunday. Told my wife I was going to take the '57 out for a run to Russell's truck stop on I40 just over the state line in NM. Also told her if the car checked out ok when I got there, I might keep going. Ended up doing 730 miles. Did the trip to Santa Fe I missed on the 4th, and Taos and Red River. For the most part everything went well, and the issues I primarily had I think I can chaulk up to the computer still learning. Ran pretty much at 200* + or-, the whole time. One of the computer issues involved how the car ran at altitude. When I first started in the 7000 ft level, it was bogging down pretty bad. The car use to love high altitude. After about 1 1/2 hours of up and down big hills, it finally started running like it use to in the mountains. Another issue was gas mileage. First tank was about 20 mpg, but second tank was up to 24.
a report on 2.5 turn Rack versus the new 3 turn rack I replaced it with. If you're deciding on which to get as a replacement, I would decide based on the type of driving you do. The 2.5 is a little better in city, parking,, etc etc, but the car is more stable on the highway at 80mph with the 3 turn rack. I'm sure I've mentioned in the past how bad I thought the car handled on a windy day, or when a semi passed. It's only been one trip, but I believe that might have been the more touchy 2.5 turn rack that was causing that at high speeds.
finally a few pics. My added switch and LED for the cooling fan, and the best part......my road trip. I think this pic was going north on hwy 84 off I40 just west of Santa Rosa, headed towards Las Vegas, NM
Awesome Rich! I hope all the problems are behind you now and you can enjoy the road trips..
Thanks Jim........she's been good so far. Had one lifter I could hear ticking a little, but went away on this trip.
I'm going to have to miss my annual Thin Air Nationals in Colorado on the 20th. No money! This was a must do trip. Left with a bag of food and a credit card for gas. Spent 1.80 for a cup of coffee, lol.
You sound happy! So glad it is all coming together. What's those two funny things poking up in the front?
On July 4th weekend they were flagpoles.
Rich is just pretending he now owns a SBC. those 2 things in front are just the lookalike hoodtrims of the other 57 brand. we cannot blame him after all he's through. Anyways, blue blood forever now ! :002:
Ha, I was thinking Texas Long Horns, because we all know everything is big in Texas :us-texas:.
Quote from: fdlrc on 2019-07-12 20:02Ha, I was thinking Texas Long Horns, because we all know everything is big in Texas :us-texas:.
The way politics are going up here we might end up cutting Alaska in two. That would make Texas the third largest state. :003:
Rich,
Its really great to hear that your back on the road and the car is running great! I hate to say it...but i completely get the "No Money" part... :-\
Quote from: Ford Blue blood on 2019-07-12 18:46
You sound happy! So glad it is all coming together. What's those two funny things poking up in the front?
I thought those were aiming points, sort of like sights.
Rich
I sure am happy for you that you are up and running again. You rally paid your dues. Seems like there is a rumor going around though that you ended up installing a SBC. But don't worry I'm hot going to tell anyone.
Haha.Yep...a cover-up. I can cover a lot of territory with those old 4.6 dohc valve covers. The hard part was getting the injection intake to hide that carb.
Congrats on getting her back on the road Rich, you definitely deserve some road time in that car, safe travels and thanks for letting us tag along, on your way to getting her back on the road and all of the challenges you've overcome. Safe travels!