4.6 being installed now

[RICH MUISE]

Apparently, from the chart I posted at the beginning of this thread, the Mark viii can only be trimmed to about 5 1/2. That is at the highpoint in the center though, so hopefully there's enough room for all the coolant lines, etc. as you brought up. That 5 1/2 height may preclude it from being used on our '57's..I won't have anyway of knowing til the engine is in place unless someone else can figure some dimensions from their installed 4.6 engine front (@ crankshaft pulley?) to a reference point on the core support

[rlibew]

My engine pulleys and belts set 4" from my stock radiator and my fan unit is only 2 1/2 " so, so far all is good. I bought my electric fan unit from a local radiator shop complete with two offset fans and aluminum shroud that attaches to the frame of 57 radiator. I will go by and get manufacturer name and model if possible, I purchased it two years ago to use on 351 install. At this point it looks like all plumbing will clear, but we all know how our plans work out some times. I believe this setup is a alternative to using the thicker mustang fan unit.   

[RICH MUISE]

I need to get my back yard cleaned up before the city tags my unregistered cars, so I started stripping down the oler mark Viii I bought years ago. I also nedd the tranny out of it to gut out for the mock up into my '57. I'm taking off anything I can posibly use or resell for parts...then it's going to the scrap yard. I'm also gonna remove the back rt. quarter just in case I decide to repair the nicer Mark Viii I recently bought.
Anyway..I now fully understand what 57DOHC was talking about when he said it was taking more time to remove stuff from his Mustang donor!! I'm also using the experience to figure out how to remove stuff like electrical connectors, fuel and a/c lines without damaging them. I've pulled alot of small components off it that may be usable on my '57 also like hood light switches, cable releases,fuel lines,a/c and power steering condensers, etc.
I have a minumum of equiptment I'm working with, so I'm thinking of making it a little easier and removing the core support with a sawzall, and removing the bumper spot welds. That way, I don't have to drop the K member, and the engine will only have to be raised a foot or so, if that. I'm planning on using the '93 driveshaft. It is the only Mark that has a one piece driveshaft, and according to Bob Claiborn when he did his wagon, it fits with no alterations.
A little off-topic, but talking about modular stuff..check out the wiper set-up out of the Mark..all in one unit!

[ROKuberski]

Strange but true.

A friend of mine used to do research work for Ford.  20 years ago they gave him three 4.6 L engines for testing and he has one left that is essentially new with only minutes on it, not even hours.  He has offered this engine to me for nothing.  It's complete.

After reading through what I can find on this site, it appears that it would not be an easy job to make this swap.  I have a 292/auto in my Fairlane 500.  My skill level is pretty good with mechanical things, but I don't want to do any more than an engine and transmission swap.  If I could not buy brackets for mounting the engine, I can fabricate them.  However, I don't want to make changes like moving the radiator forward or hacking into the firewall.  I just got this car back from the painter and this engine swap project is coming a little out of sequence.

I've attached a .pdf file of the pictures he sent me.

Any words of wisdom on the potential project would be appreciated from those of you that are already working on this.

Thanks,

Rich

[RICH MUISE]

What do you know about the engine he is offering, other than it has basically no miles? What I know about the dohc is that how difficult it is to install for a novice mechanic like myself greatly depends on the electronics the engine was designed to be used with. The Mark viii engines from 93-96 are the easiest in that they use a cable throttle and do not have the PATS system (anti-theft). Anything newer than that requires reprogramming of the computers. It's the computerized system that I was refering to when I asked what you knew about the engine....what is the engine requiring as far as a computer? It sounds like your friend is someone who wouldn't have a problem with that though. There is not a whole lot of hacking involved. There shouldn't be any to the firewall, and engine mounts require a minimun of "grinding" work to add a slot to the existing mounting plate on the crossmember. I'm just getting to the point where I'll know what is required to fab a tranny crossmember..but once again..the crossmember bolts on so no "hacking". The upper control arms need a minor amount of trimming to clear the exhaust manifolds. Ron Francis makes an engine management system to be used in conjunction with the "stock" computer and engine control modul.
The radiator being moved forward is not something that is necessary, unless posibly to make extra room for using the Mark viii shroud and fan setup. aftermarket setups don't need as much room.
You've got somebody (57dohc) not to far from you in the middle of the swap...why don't you take a ride down to the Springs and see what's going on with his install.
I'm 'bout running out of time to work on my '57..got to get back to rebuilding the house since the weather has finally broken.
If you have any specific questions, let me know. Also, if you decide against it, let me know specifics about the engine management system required for that motor, and if your friend wants to sell it.

[ROKuberski]

Rich,

The engine was set up to be a test engine and the computer was also set up that way.  My friend says that it does not look for all the add on equipment that I don't have any way.  This engine is supposed to be a 1993 pre production unit with 305 HP.  Of the three engines my friend got, one is currently being used in a university as a test bed for students and has 19 years of hard work on it with no significant problems.  He said they have run that engine for hours at wide open throttle with out any problems.

I was just looking at final drive ratios.  I don't know how to confirm that my car has the standard rear gears, but if so, it would 3.56:1, a little lower than what I saw for a Mark VIII at 3.07:1.  My goal would be just a transplant of the engine and a 4-speed automatic transmission.  I think the C-4 would work.

As to installation issues, I read about exhaust manifold clearance problems, clearance to radiator, possible clearance to hood and dip stick issues.

How about the weight of the aluminum block engine compared to the cast iron 292?  Any mods required for the suspension?

Did you look at the pictures I posted?

Who has the project in Colorado Springs.  That only 75 miles from me.

I had no thoughts of doing this until the offer of a free engine was made a couple of days ago.  He tells me that because of the way he acquired the engine he can't sell it.  He was going to save it for a future project, but told me that I could have it.  It's good to have good friends.

Rich 

[RICH MUISE]

Rich...57dohc is the one doing the swap near you. He lives in Black Forest...just north of Colorado Springs. he's using a Mustang donor for his..manual transmision...'03 I think...look back at the bigginning of this thread for his posts.
I'm not sure if a c-6 could be adapted to this engine...I would be surprised if it could..posibly an AOD. You would need the computer stuff out of a donor '93-95 Mark viii ('96's are different). If your friend, or yourself, is a auto electronics guru, you could probably make a harness. The Ron Francis setup is around a thousand, give or take, but is designed to plug into the existing engine connectors. I understand there are about 110 wires that will need to be run on their system.
I did look at your pics....super...looks identical to the '93 Mark viii I just pulled as near as I can tell without comparing pictures.
Without being too redundant on info that has already been posted on the older threads, It will need Mustang Cobra exhaust manifolds, Mustang motor mounts, Continental front sump oil pan and pick up tube, and the oil filter adapter off a Crown Vic.
The guys that have run stock or aftermarket radiators have had no fitment problems. The dip stick is a minor mod, and there are no clearance issues with the hood with the engine in your pics (it's the supercharged later engines that may have hood clearance problems).
If you decide not to do it, have your friend give you the engine, then you can sell it to me, and donate the money to him..LOL

[RICH MUISE]

Forgot...weight wise, when I ordered the front springs from Eaton's, they compared the 4.6dohc/4r70w tranny out of the Mark Viii to the original '57 6 cylinder manual and there was less than 65 pounds difference. I think the combined weight of the 4.6/4r70w is 760 lbs, or thereabouts.
If you decide to go with it, I'll get you some specific data (years) on the manifolds and mounts, etc.

[Tom S]

I don't know how to confirm that my car has the standard rear gears, but if so, it would 3.56:1 ...

Look for a metal tag on the differential carrier assembly secured by one of the nuts on the housing studs.
My '58 had it's 3:56 tag on the drivers side but I have found most of them on the passenger side & so flat against the housing & hidden under grease/oil that had to be scraped away to even find it. 

[RICH MUISE]

Rich...amoung other issues you'll need to address are the fuel tank/electric fuel pump/return lines, a means of supporting and shifting that tranny, a cable type gas pedal, speedometer, driveshaft,engine air supply along with relocating the battery,and consideration of your existing condition of electrical system.
I'm sure I'll find out about other things as I actually get into doing the installation.
To sum things up..is it an easy swap..definetly not. Don't know of many that are more compilcated. Is it going to take time..lots of it. If your calculating down time..months or a year depending on experience and how much time you've got to devote to it. Is it going to cost..you bet..you'll be looking at a donor car plus fuel and engine management system.
Is it worth it?...I'm going for it. I like the "pro's" side of the list...outweighs the "cons" imho. With that said, most of the advantages of using a late model modular engine come into play with the full array of electronics (electronic tranny, etc.) in full usage, so I'm not sure about the computer with your engine "not looking for added on things you don't have anyway", and if it would function with a computer out of a '93-95 Mark viii....that's way beyond my knowledge, but your friend may be able to answer that. I guess what I'm trying to say is, unless your going for the full package, it may not be worth the effort.

[RICH MUISE]

I'll probably have "one more thing" things popping into my head all day long....There is no room for a normal power brake booster. My current plans are for a hydro-boost unit out of an '01 Mustang. I'd really like an electric booster system, but they're pricey.
I would think your info-gathering priority at this time would be to find out from your friend if the engine can be adapted to run on a stock 93-95 Mark viii computer. You had indicated it had a special computer with it that "didn't look for things you didn't have anyways". That may be really good...I just don't know...but you need to consider what would happen if that computer got fried. If it's a one-off that that engine needs cause it can't be adapted to a normal street system, how are you gonna replace it?

[57dohc]

Rich;
Thought I'd better chime in as this post mentioned me.  I would welcome you to come down from Arvada to check my car out.  Progress as of late has been slow.  My wife was diagnosed with ovarian cancer last month and that instantly changed priorities.  We have been through surgery and now chemo treatments have started.  While we have an excellent chance of beating this thing,  I don't want to divert my attention away from taking care of her by working alone in the garage.
However, I'm sure I would appreciate a "car visitor" now and then to keep interest in the hobby.  I do have the engine on the motor mounts and it is easy to see the small modifications necessary to accomplish this.  I don't see any of the mechanics of fitting the engine and transmission as very difficult.  I think the main challenge will be the electronics and fuel systems but there are kits out there that can assist here.  I did an  5.0 EFI conversion in a 1966 mustang with a good wiring kit and it was surprisingly easy despite my complete lack of knowledge of anything having to do with wiring!
Anyway, if you want to get that newly painted Fairlane out for a spring drive, give me a call.  Weekends are best as I spend a lot of week days for medical treatments.  Thanks!  Al 719-650-3323.

[ROKuberski]

Al,

Thanks for the encouragement.  I am sorry to hear that your wife is having to go through all the problems with whipping cancer.  We all offer her our best in this fight.

For me, the prospect of this whole project came out of the woodwork just last Wednesday.  It's quite a project.  I am not too concerned with the physical parts of the project, but the computer issues are all new to me.  This is only my third car restoration project.  I did a '49 Plymouth when I was 15 and when I retired in '08, I promptly did a '37 Chevrolet Master Deluxe.  I drove that a few years, but with no a/c, summertime drives were just too hot.  In the back of my mind has always been the '57 Fairlane.  It was the first car that my Dad had that I thought was a cool car.  I bought mine two years ago and then last year sold my '37 Chevy and bought a '02 Corvette.

The Fairlane was a pretty good looking car, but I rebuilt the brakes, fuel system and did an engine tear down and replaced the rings and honed the cylinders.  The engine had been rebuilt in the mid '90 but the guy died shortly thereafter.  The car sat for almost 15 years before I bought it.  The engine ran crappy and upon doing a compression check, I had perfect compression in 5 cylinders and low compression in 3 cylinders.  The crank was turned, all cylinders were bored to .030 oversize and new pistons installed.  The engine now runs better, but not as well as I would like.

So that's the history of the car.  I don't want to make the car a hotrod.  I just bought new Diamondback radials last fall and I want to be able to keep these on the car, with original steel wheels and wheel covers.

With this engine/transmission transplant, I would also like to be able to keep my differential, speedometer and original gages if possible.

The "challenges/things to do" as I see them are;  the purchase of a transmission, bell housing, torque converter, flex plate, shift linkage modifications, cable operated accelerator, air intake, modification to support the engine and transmission, drive shaft modification and some fuel supply line and pump issues. 

I was anticipating that this aluminum engine would not weigh more than the cast iron unit to be replaced.  I was also hoping that I could use my differential with a modified drive shaft.  I don?t have power brakes or power steering and have not anticipated adding these items.

I don?t know how this engine communicates with the transmission, or even if it does.  There may be computer issues that I have not considered. 

Right now, I would say that I would be willing to spend a couple of grand on the project and would hope that I could complete the work in my garage during next winter.


I would love to come and visit your project.  I'm not all that familiar with Colorado Springs, but my sister lives there, just north of Pulpit Rock.  I get off at the Woodman Road exit to visit her.  That's 75 miles from me.  I'm pretty sure I can make the round trip on less than a tank of gas.  I'll give you a call to coordinate this visit.  Perhaps the weekend of April 20th or May 4th. 

[RICH MUISE]

Al...sorry to hear about your wife...sometimes life really sucks. Best of wishes for her recovery. Sounds like you got your priorities in the right order...good for you.
Cool you guys maybe getting together....like they say, us '57 guys got to stick together.
Rich..."your" engine probably has the flex plate already on it, and the tranny/bellhousing are one unit. The tranny you'd be looking for is a 4R70W. That's almost identical to an AODE, is a 4 speed with overdrive. It has a higher torque range than the AODE, and the electronics are different. It is electronic..the Ron Francis system I was talking about includes the wiring for the tranny. One of the guys that did the swap a few years ago said the Markviii driveshaft fit without alterations...but he was doing a wagon (short wheelbase)...so probably would need mods for a Fairlane. I was told a 3:55 differential would be real good for the OD tranny...I want a cruiser I can drive on the freeways at 75 without tearing the engine up...like you, don't want a hot rod..just something quick, reliable and economical. I also like the idea of being able to go to a Ford Dealership if I had to on the road.

[ROKuberski]

Look for a metal tag on the differential carrier assembly secured by one of the nuts on the housing studs.
My '58 had it's 3:56 tag on the drivers side but I have found most of them on the passenger side & so flat against the housing & hidden under grease/oil that had to be scraped away to even find it.

My tag is on the driver's side too.  It was too cruddy to read, so I took it off and cleaned it up.  It says 3.10, no question about that.  That is perfect for me, but it's a value that I was not aware was available for this car.

My picture of the tag is not the greatest, but it's readable.

My previous information was from the internet.  I also have an original shop manual.  The standard rear gear ratio for the 6 and V8 was 3.10:1 with the Fordomatic, 3.56 was optional.

Does anyone know if a different differential was used with the higher horsepower options?

Rich