1957 Ford Country Sedan mocha silver V8 4dr wagon

[djfordmanjack]

found something missing from top of the 2bl Holley carburetor. there seems to be a linkage to the fuel bowl vent ( a check valve), which is either plugged or stuck or whatever.
remembering last time I touched it incidently engine stalled. looked like an aluminium plug, so I didn't bother much further. now in the exploded view I see there should be some kind of linkage to the accelerator pump. Let's hurry up and wait for the rain to stop...

[lalessi1]

Here are pics of an older Holley with the linkage you are looking for...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reman-Holley-2300-2-Barrel-Carburetor-2463-1-1960-1964-AMC-Rambler-250-287-327-/182526407086?hash=item2a7f6bf1ae:g:kFkAAOSwpkFY7RmX&vxp=mtr

[John Palmer]

Here are pics of an older Holley with the linkage you are looking for...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reman-Holley-2300-2-Barrel-Carburetor-2463-1-1960-1964-AMC-Rambler-250-287-327-/182526407086?hash=item2a7f6bf1ae:g:kFkAAOSwpkFY7RmX&vxp=mtr

The linkage shown in the photo should not have any issue for Guenter regarding his idle issue.  It was used on the later models as part of the emissions system that we started to see about 1965 in California models, and 1966 in other states.  The float bowel is vented thru the tall tube "into the air cleaner" when the linkage is closed (throttle open), and is vented to atmosphere when the car sits with a hot engine (linkage vent is open).  It helps with hot start problems.  If it was missing entirely, it would still work just fine.

[John Palmer]

JFI Chilton says 1 degree centrifugal advance @ 375 rpm and full 18degrees at 2000rpm. That means an approximate increase of timing of 1 degree per 100 rpm. that means 7 degrees of timing difference between 1000rpm and stall. that is pretty much what I observe with the timing light, maybe a little more ( estimated 10 degrees) of timing fluctuation, when engine rpms drop and stalls when hot. can't wait to go out again and search for the cause. stupid rain, move away !

I think the spec's your reading is talking about setting up the distributor in a SUN distributor machine.  The distributor turns at half crank speed, so the 375 RPM is really 750 engine crankshaft RPM.

Take a look at the distributor.  You will have a primary spring (small/light) and a secondary spring (thicker/stronger).  Note, this is all below the breaker plate, so you have to turn the distributor and look through the spring "adjustment hole", or remove the plate to see the springs.  Make certain that the mechanical advance is not hanging up (usually is rusted) and that the primary spring is strong enough to return the advance completely during idle speed.  Part of servicing a distributor was pulling the rotor, check the mechanical advance and LUBING (with oil) the small felt pad under the rotor to prevent the rust.  After 60 years who knows what was really done to our cars.

Pull the rotor off, with a needle nose pliers, pull the felt out of the center, lube with oil the center of the advance mechanical advance mechanism.  If it's stiff, pull the funky shape small spring out of the top of the distributor shaft, remove the screws that hold down the breaker plate and clean and grease the shaft and advance. 

If the advance does not return completely, easily, and smoothly, it could cause the issues like you have experienced.  It could also be "heat sensitive".

Then again, I could be completely "off track", LOL.  But at least it's something that's easy to check. 

[djfordmanjack]

Guys.....and John and Lynn, thanx for your input first!
I must be the happiest man on earth today
because

I FOUND IT !



Like most of you I was going back and forth between carb vaccuum and timing, and as a matter of fact all is part of it.
To make a long story short, the main problem WAS the fuel bowl vent !!!!!!!!!
obviously the carb or/and bowl had been replaced by a reconditioned or later NOS part and it had the top fuel bowl vent plugged with that little aluminum thingy I was refering before. I thought it over and over in my mind again and was watching it stalling again at operating temperature and was also observing how the engine would stall when you partwise plugged the main vent with your thumb. also the 57 Manual stated the second fuel bowl vent was for 'curb side idle'. I simply removed the plug and all is good.
engine idles nicely, no more stalling when hot and no racing idle adjustment because all of that. Much more is involved and I will get back in detail later. Still I have no proof of how things will work with a cold engine but I am very positive. Idle is down to ultimate Y block-cargo-ship-sound-alike creeping speed. plain love it !!!!

[djfordmanjack]

Hopefully this will help others in troubleshooting as well.
Rereading the manuals I found this discription in the 57 Ford shop manual. It reads that an external fuel bowl vent is necessary for curb idle.




and that exploded view in the Chilton manual. these show the external fuel bowl vent ( in different versions obviously, this linkage looks like the one Lynn posted).


My actual carb had none of that and the bosses on the bowl were never drilled or tapped for the fuel bowl vent linkage. Possibly a NOS, replacement or refurbished carb or built for another application. there is a solid plug where the fuel bowl vent should be.


I simply pulled the little plug and replaced it with a piece of hose for now


Here's that little devil !!! GRRRRRR !
way easier pulling this rascal than replacing the distributor and resetting timing.


When the engine is up to operating conditions with plug removed it keeps idle nicely both in N and Dr. As soon as you put the plug back it stalls immediately. Obviously the non vented bowl disturbs pressure conditions in the idle system ever so little, but enough to cause the engine to stall. I have never before seen such a problem. This engine must have had rough idle roblems ever since the carb was rebuilt/replaced. It probably explains why the vaccuum unit was disconnected and heat riser tube mangled, timing disturbed, fast idle set screw bent beyond function and more. such a little thing causing such a problem and they couldn't find it.....
I am sure there will have to be further adjustments and little things corrected, when the engine is back to cold and hot temperature conditions, but for now the CS runs like a dream and holds idle in P.R.N and Dr.
30 minutes test drive and not a single skip. no clunk anymore when putting her into gear. Timing slightly advanced to 8-10 degrees as it seems to run better with that. still not checked the vibration damper marks for accuracy.
There is some timing fluctuation of 2 or 3 degrees but I can live with that for now.
Here's some viedos of the cargoship leaving the harbor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA0cbWV5Sfw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-irQFB8cyBo

[mustang6984]

            

I believe the entire gang is cheering with you! Congrats!!!

[John Palmer]

Glad you found it!

I hate rebuilder's, they screw up everything they touch.  The original parts, and a new gasket kit are a much better choice 99% of the time.

No reason you cannot leave it open, as long as you can figure out a shield to keep the big debris out.  On the two and four barrel Ford/Autolite carbs they just had a 3/16" diameter vent hole drilled at an angle towards the base of the air cleaner, but the top gasket was cut in a way to form a baffle to prevent dirt from falling into the float bowel.

What fits into the black grommet at the rear of the air horn?  You usually find a 1/4" tube coming down from inside the (filtered) air horn, that feeds "clean filtered air" to the choke fitting on the exhaust manifold.  The other tube sends the warmed air back to the choke housing.  Basically it's a clean air closed loop system as originally designed.  The choke housing has a vacuum piston and will suck up dirt if not supplied with filtered air.

[djfordmanjack]

John, thanx for pointing out, as I had no idea about the fresh air choke tubing circuit. The 4 barrel Y block intake has a little mushroom shaped baffle for the choke heat riser tubing so I wasn't expecting the line running up into the air cleaner. I was thinking about the plugged hole the other day when fiddling with the carb.
somebody badly mangled all of the choke system.they cut and plugged the og heating tube from the intake ( installed an aftermarket kit that takes hot air directly from the exhaust manifold, without filtering). they bent the high idle set crew and lever so it was completely out of working order and off the cam. Now I have it back working and correctly set up again and the wagon has nice smooth idle when cold and won't stall when putting into gear, even immediately after cold start. I love getting these little odds and ends improved and working as they should. It's not only about convenience but also about safety in everyday driving. Stalling engines are no good in traffic.
After yesterday's trouble shooting work the car started up today from really cold (close freezing) nicely and held idle well, if a bit higher than yesterday (dense air in cold weather). just a little adjustment, maybe 1/8 turn of idle set screw and it was back down to creeping speed in Dr in hot condtion. there will be many more small steps in making it run even better, like adjusting valve backlash, reworking the rocker shaft assemblies, fiddling with the distributor to get rid of the slight timing fluctuation, possibly changing the choke hot air feed back to factory specs aso. this is still an old, long time unopened and probably well used engine, but I am happy to have it pretty smooth and steady.

[djfordmanjack]

Today saw a nice local swap meet and I found this great Australian camber/caster gauge. I have no idea how it would make it from far away Melbourne, Australia to little Graz, Austria ??
it works great on both the 34 and 57 front hubs (magnetic) and I will have to rethink my camber shims, as stupid me I set it to 1 degree NEG camber. it should be 1 degree POS ! I'll get that fixed next week. Funny as the wagon goes perfectly straight even at 70mph.








swap meet also got me this near mint set of 7.75-14 US Royals, that I plan to put on the og color matching set of HD wheels that came on the wagon as an alternative to the wide whites. they'll give the car a mid 1960s feel.

[lalessi1]

Guys.....and John and Lynn, thanx for your input first!
I must be the happiest man on earth today
because

I FOUND IT !



Like most of you I was going back and forth between carb vaccuum and timing, and as a matter of fact all is part of it.
To make a long story short, the main problem WAS the fuel bowl vent !!!!!!!!!
obviously the carb or/and bowl had been replaced by a reconditioned or later NOS part and it had the top fuel bowl vent plugged with that little aluminum thingy I was refering before. I thought it over and over in my mind again and was watching it stalling again at operating temperature and was also observing how the engine would stall when you partwise plugged the main vent with your thumb. also the 57 Manual stated the second fuel bowl vent was for 'curb side idle'. I simply removed the plug and all is good.
engine idles nicely, no more stalling when hot and no racing idle adjustment because all of that. Much more is involved and I will get back in detail later. Still I have no proof of how things will work with a cold engine but I am very positive. Idle is down to ultimate Y block-cargo-ship-sound-alike creeping speed. plain love it !!!!

Amazing how such a tiny thing makes such a big difference. I thought I remembered that vent lever on the fuel bowl from long ago so I looked for a picture of that vintage Holley, it was what I remembered but I had no idea of the function...

[djfordmanjack]

thanx again for posting that link, Lynn! that is typical for all of you great forum members and 57 owners and it sure helps a lot in trouble shooting! Just a little further info will point you in the right direction. love it !

[Ecode70D]

Guenter
   I have to concede that I would not have figured that one out.  You have an analytical mind and can think these things out.   Mustang6984 got it right and had all the little people cheering for you.  I do believe that everyone was.  Fixing the problem is usually easier than finding it.  You get a thumbs up from me for that one.
   
    You did good finding that alignment tool.  I have a set of them that I have been using for years since a front end alignment was $19. I wonder what they cost now.  You might have seen them in the wooden cabinet to the left of my desk.   Well maybe not. first you have to find the desk under all of my junk.   They do work.  Jay 
   
     

[djfordmanjack]

Thank you Jay. I am sure there are still some other minor issues around the fuel and ignition system, that helped making this plug the major cause. Next thing I will check the fuel bowl float level and if it changes when engine gets hot. A combination of lower fuel level and plugged vent will also change the idle mixture. good thing, I now have a hole to check fuel level without  having to remove the bowl...
I don't remember seeing your camber gauges, but then again I probably wouldn't have even known what one looks like....haha...
I also got a kingpin inclination tool with the set. Maybe not so important on the 57 IFS but a nice thing to have for solid front axles.
Anyways will be great using on the Del Rio, which knowingly was in a frontend accident.

[hiball3985]

Guenter, I have to question why you would want +1 camber rather then -1 ?